Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

That's because you didn't bother to read the entire post where sailchic asked me a question regarding when I was out of work. I was simply answering her question. Yes it does relate to all the "homeless" excuse makers we have here in the USA. Dave, I believe you live overseas where it's maybe not quite as easy to live off the fat of other peoples wallets like here in the US. Here, millions make a living doing just that as "victims." Which is why I go sailing... to get away from it.

Actually I live in a socialist utopia that currently has an unusual centre right coalition in power and thousands or maybe millions " live of the fat of other people's wallets ". I suspect the US has some ways to go down that road yet

Lets not descend this debate into freeloaders versus tax payers. I mean stealing Nutella is a sure sign things are desperate, very desperate.

The issue in Oriental is a simple lack of laws. In their absence , unfortunates ate bring targeted as "undesirables ".

You can't have your cake ( light touch no laws ) and then eat it ( ah but when I don't like you, I have a makey up rule , ie leave )

Dave

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Attempting to drive people out because you view them as undesirables is unjust and in many cases in breach of various laws.

Again, please name one.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dave, I believe you live overseas where it's maybe not quite as easy to live off the fat of other peoples wallets like here in the US. Here, millions make a living doing just that as "victims." Which is why I go sailing... to get away from it.

Hum, I must not be living off the fat right. Actually compared to the EU counties, the US spends almost nothing on the poor.... We spend the part the EU spends on the down trodden, on the military. Got to keep Boeing, general dynamics, lockheed, etc making big bucks. I'm still wondering why we have such a large military budget, 750 billion including DHS and VA. Gee 46 billion is for "Black" military projects. Now that's living off the fat.

Oh look, we both go sailing to get away from it. Knew we could find common ground....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

That's a laugh. Please name one law that would apply to anyone applying pressure to have those anchor-outs leave. There is none, and in fact under your logic much more "persuasive" avenues are available. After 20 years of practicing law, I have learned not to continue to debate someone who has no embarassment at saying the most ridiculous things.

I am well aware of the fate of many local anti hate ordinances when subjected to SCOTUS.

I am being sidetracked. I started my portion of this debate by simply saying , there are either anchoring laws or not. They should be applied. Outside of that , its just whining

Dave

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Again, please name one.

Perhaps Title II and title III of the Civil rights act of 1964. You did ask.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Oh look, we both go sailing to get away from it. Knew we could find common ground....

Sailorchic my friend, we have lots of common ground. I believe in a public safety net for those who truly can't take care of themselves... I do however feel that since I've been down and out twice over the past 25 years, I have a unique perspective on the long term lazy in our country, most of whom need a swift kick in the rear..

Like Dave said in an earlier post, people do have a right to be lazy.... I agree. But to me, being lazy means having made a personal choice to go without stuff that more enterprising people might have. It doesn't mean having the right to plant yourself on someone else's doorstep and then expect them to feed and care for you whilst one does nothing in return... even going so far as shoplifting like the French couple in the red boat.

Here in the US, it's just way too easy to be lazy and make excuses... eg: free everything.... geez, maybe I should try it for a change. Oh but wait... who will pay for it?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sailorchic my friend, we have lots of common ground. I believe in a public safety net for those who truly can't take care of themselves... I do however feel that since I've been down and out twice over the past 25 years, I have a unique perspective on the long term lazy in our country, most of whom need a swift kick in the rear..

Like Dave said in an earlier post, people do have a right to be lazy.... I agree. But to me, being lazy means having made a personal choice to go without stuff that more enterprising people might have. It doesn't mean having the right to plant yourself on someone else's doorstep and then expect them to feed and care for you whilst one does nothing in return... even going so far as shoplifting like the French couple in the red boat.

Here in the US, it's just way too easy to be lazy and make excuses... eg: free everything.... geez, maybe I should try it for a change. Oh but wait... who will pay for it?

Seriously , do you think someone stealing " Nutella " is freeloading , would you not regard it as " desperate " instead.

What puzzles me about this debate , is it about the fact they are down and outs i.e. viewed as undesirables or is it they stayed too long. Which is it.

Do you mean if they were " nice" white middle class boats staying for 6-9-12 months there would be no problem?

Do you mean that house painters can stay for say 6 months , but the penniless can only say, stay 1 week or something.

What has being down and out got to do with lack of anchoring laws in Oriental

Dave

[MarkSF]

Just want to say that, for most of us, the construction of marinas is a good thing, just like other boating infrastructure (boat ramps, pumpouts, etc). Here in SF bay it costs me $15 to $25 to overnight in a marina, which is a small fraction of the cost of a campsite. Most municipal marinas are run at about break even, so they are just about recovering the cost of building the marina in the first place.

It is clear that the general trend is towards restrictions on anchoring, and the construction of marinas to replace anchorages (and frequently, in anchorages). . But make no mistake, it is the impoverished with their half-derelict boats who are helping to advance this trend and take away the anchorages from those of us who use them responsibly. Just like anything, if it's not used responsibly, it will disappear.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

It is clear that the general trend is towards restrictions on anchoring, and the construction of marinas to replace anchorages (and frequently, in anchorages). . But make no mistake, it is the impoverished with their half-derelict boats who are helping to advance this trend and take away the anchorages from those of us who use them responsibly.

I would counter that the trend towards restricting free anchorages is driven by both private and municipal desires to extract money from the increasingly prevalent presence of boats. Years ago there were few yachts , hence few opportunities to extract money today its different.

Your argument is a bit like saying that the existence of a few abandoned cars was the reason car parking charges were brought in !

Dave

[psneeld]

This not being a legal forum to debate the laws that either do or don't exist and it being a cruisers forum...I think it perfectly normal to debate what other boaters should or shouldn't do as a moral or ethical issue.

I say move on...respect that others may want a turn at being close to the center of town for awhile.

For those that can't see that...fine...but don't expect everyone to agree or not put whatever legal pressure there is to bear on forcing the hands of those that think they can stay forever.

Especially for those of us that see this issue as hurting cruisers "rights" as opposed to it supporting them.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here in the US, it's just way too easy to be lazy and make excuses... eg: free everything.... geez, maybe I should try it for a change. Oh but wait... who will pay for it?

Hum. I must be missing out on the free everything bit. Where is that??. There actually is not a lot available in government assistance to the poor. If your single, you might get $150 a month in food stamps, but that's about it. Hardly free everything.

Though if you listen to the republicans, the poor are living at club med. Sure, a poor woman with children, can get welfare and some get public housing. But only about 10% that need it get housing. No children, its beans and rice and hot dogsfor you. A far cry from free everything.

Actually many anchor outs, least the ones I've seen, do work. Others are retired on a very small monthly income. Others are just bat S*** crazy. But you can't fix crazy.

Ok, OK I might be lazy. But its hard work being this lazy. Actually I'm working up to be a social gadfly.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by psneeld

This not being a legal forum to debate the laws that either do or don't exist and it being a cruisers forum...I think it perfectly normal to debate what other boaters should or shouldn't do as a moral or ethical issue.

I say move on...respect that others may want a turn at being close to the center of town for awhile.

For those that can't see that...fine...but don't expect everyone to agree or not put whatever legal pressure there is to bear on forcing the hands of those that think they can stay forever.

Especially for those of us that see this issue as hurting cruisers "rights" as opposed to it supporting them.

But reading the TownDock letters the main criticism seemed to be they were " undesirables " and should push off. Not thAt there was evidence of complaints for users denied anchoring space

This is NIMBYism not anchoring issue

Dave

[Mark Johnson]

Well... The topic morphed as they often do, but just to make my previous point clear, about the anchorage in Oriental NC, I just took a few photos below, 4 hours ago.

As you can see, there are 4 boats in the anchorage, with the only boat on a single hook, (as 99% of real "cruisers" usually are), forced to the outside, mostly beyond the protection of the breakwater. There is no room for ANY other boats. As it is, with the commercial shrimp boat's channel being next to the breakwater, and the marina's channel being on the opposite side of these boats from that, there is "no room at the inn".

Because the other 3 boats are on multi anchor, semi permanent moorings, NO ONE else can "safely" anchor in the protected end of the anchorage, for fear of snagging another's hook. Also, transient "Snow Birds" heading down the ICW, (or cruisers in general), always use one hook like the guy on the outside here, and this ONLY works if everyone else uses one hook, so they all swing together.

These 3 inner anchorage "Anarchist", (unfortunately known as dirt bags by many), have dominated an anchorage that is provided, along with the dinghy dock, for "cruisers". These folks are also, without a doubt, pumping their sewage overboard, as there IS NO pump out boat. The NC hog farm debacle is beside the point!

I was a lineaboard/cruiser for a period of time in the Florida Keys 40 years ago, 30 years ago, and 20 years ago. It has now become SO boater unfriendly that I don't even like to pass through anymore. This sort of liveaboard anchoring "anarchy", often perpetuated with unsafe dirtbag boats that are an eyesore and break free in storms, (at the State's expense), is exactly why things have moved in the direction that they have in the Keys. Now, South Florida is Persona Non Grata to almost ALL anchoring, or the region is full of ridiculously expensive mooring fields, that destroy the underwings of plywood trimarans like mine, with their "hard" mooring balls that get trapped underneith.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A LEGITIMATE, RESPONSIBLE, LIVEABOARD, I lived aboard for 15 years altogether, and even when very very poor, on a 23' home made boat, I was NOT one of these inconsiderate anarchists! I paid for the services I used on shore, just like the land folks did.

LAND BASE?
Although I had no land base at all for 12 years in a stretch, and my land possessions were in storage units, I had NO problems as a liveaboard/cruiser regarding taxes, citizenship, voting, driver's licence, etc. I just used my mail forwarding service address, (St Brendain's Isle), as my legal address. That was the same address on ALL of my paperwork, and with all of my travels here and abroad, there was never any question. This is 100% legal, EVERYWHERE.

When I lived long term on the hook most recently, I chose a place like outside of the Municipal Marina's basin in Titusville Fl, just above the weird S FL zone... For a reasonable fee, one gets a dinghy dock, automobile parking spot (or 2), showers, garbage disposal, pay phones, a small store, fuel & water availability, mail drop, and pumpouts (with a pumpout boat that comes to you). By paying for these services AT A REASONABLE RATE, and having boats that no matter how small or humble are at least REAL boats, one doesn't incur the ire of the landside folks. Now Titusville has a mooring field as well, but you can anchor outside of it, and just pay for the services that you use... THIS was an "appropriate" place and situation for responsible long term liveaboard use while on the hook. It was friendly and really cheap living as well!

Hopefully, Oriental will not have to mimic South Florida... makeing more and more rules, costing real cruisers more and more money, just to fix a problem that has been created by the anarchist few, that have taken over the SMALL little transient anchorage there.
The landside folks in Oriental are almost all boaters or ex cruisers. THEY LOVE BOATS! The town even has a FREE for overnight (or 2), public dock for cruisers, that can accomodate a couple of boats at a time. If someone overstayed their welcome there, it makes the dock unavailable to other cruisers, so they would be asked to leave. The same is true of the anchorage. Those overstaying their welcome, are doing so at the expense of real cruisers, that might want to stay a night or 2 also.

Why should the problem require legislation to be solved, when applying "the golden rule", and doing the right thing, is so much easier and appropriate to the situation. Legal "corrections" inevitably tend to be "over corrections", so why force the issue and create laws that none of us want.

To Oriental anchorage residents that have been there over 2 weeks: You have LONG overstayed your welcome, as the anchorage here is just too small for longer stays. Please move on...


Btw... Flying a flag that the majority of Americans find reprehensible, is a good way to be looked on as an "undesirable".

[WebWench]

To me this is not about anyone being undesirable....it is more about people not giving equal opportunity to use the anchorages to others.

Have you ever noticed that the anchorages that get monopolized long term are usually the ones where you can hop in the dingy and get to the local amenities quite easily?

You don't find people monopolizing remote anchorages with no easy access to land. Well cruisers like to stop where they can get to a town and stock up on provisions, or go see the local sites, or even visit the local restaurants etc.

When those anchorages become unavailable....because someone stays indefinately, sometimes they are not even on their boat as seems to be the case here, the local businesses are hurt by it. That may be contributing to the local animosity to these boats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Though if you listen to the republicans, the poor are living at club med. Sure, a poor woman with children, can get welfare and some get public housing. But only about 10% that need it get housing. No children, its beans and rice and hot dogsfor you. A far cry from free everything.

Entirely similar to EU countries as well. The US and Europe have actually very similar social welfare supports.

And it's entirely right people should be housed. You want homeless kids on the street of the richest democracy in the world ???
Dave