Desert dweller seeking advice

[Desert Rat]

Thank you for all of the words of encouragement and advice! I am a bit overwhelmed but in a good way.

I agree with the Amel Super being far too big for my wife and I. I like the idea of the ease of sailing for a couple and older couples. Not that were old, but hopefully we will grow old on it. I originally was looking for something in the range of 44-47 ft in length. I guess the issue comes down to SO MANY CHOICES!

The plan is to join a sailing club in the San Francisco area to get more time on a boat and learn to sail. I have researched marine diesel courses in Reno/Sparks area but nothing is available. I am learning that many of the courses I am looking for (Diesel, electrical, radio, navigation, etc..) will have to be also sought in the bay area. I can do online courses, but I learn much quicker if I were to get my hands on whatever I am learning.

I am somewhat handy...I think. I am able to repair and replace items around the house and our vehicles. I am not afraid of making mistakes and learning from them.

Well...I got a call. I have to go. Thanks again for all of the advice. I am sure I have found the place to get honest answers and input.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'd say look closer to 40' than 50' with just a couple, and I'd plan on spending less on the boat, and more on the re-fit.
We are going in a 38' and I do not think we will be cramped, the whole aft Stateroom will be storage. Visitors are usually a lot rarer than people think they will be, don't buy a Stateroom for visitors, if you really get one, rent them a room in a resort
In my case I didn't really do much re-fitting so much as fitting out. My boat had none of the usual gear, but it seems often the original Windlasses etc. are undersized, and unless the boat is nearly new, all the electronics are out of date etc.
You may spend way more than you think on just nice to have things that may not be present like Watermakers, proper sized ground tackle, new sails etc.

Things like a good mattress is almost $4K, and when you re upholster the salon, that is probably another $4K, it adds up fast

I'd like to put the entire boat size for two people thing to rest. A well-designed boat can be almost any size up to maybe seventy feet or so, and be quite easy to handle for two people. We do just fine on our 53ft and would like to someday move up to a 67 footer.

OP

Don't limit yourself to 40ft because that's what other people with 40 footers think you should have.

Here's an example of what's possible (for a little more money of course):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqk3CPcJ6Hk

[JPA Cate]

Some people do think bigger is better, for sure, and it does have some things going for it.

However, i think that for people with modest sized pocketbooks, 35-40 ft. is entirely adequate for the purpose. Jim and i lived and cruised (having fun) for 18 yrs. on a 36 footer, and i'm here to tell you that it was easier for me to set the pole on her than it is on this one, and the only fix would be for me to grow to about 5'10", which is unlikely to happen at this stage of my life! So, Ann, with the 46 footer, believes she could be quite happy on something from 36-40 ft. In some ways, happier, because the maintenance and sails costs would be less.

Desert Rat, something else to consider, is that the winches should all be sized for the weaker crew. Set it up like you would for an 80 yr. old best friend, and it will stay user friendly for you for quite a while, without having to go to the costs of electric everything.

There are some "minimalist" threads here, too, and I think they help lend perspective.

Ann

[Desert Rat]

Kenomac, thank you for your input. Unfortunately, we would never be able to afford that beautiful Oyster on a cop and teacher pension. Hasn't stopped us from playing the lottery time and again though.
I can imagine that a larger boat would mean more maintenance time as well as money to dedicate to said maintenance. Another reason why the catamaran idea is out.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Desert Rat

Kenomac, thank you for your input. Unfortunately, we would never be able to afford that beautiful Oyster on a cop and teacher pension. Hasn't stopped us from playing the lottery time and again though.
I can imagine that a larger boat would mean more maintenance time as well as money to dedicate to said maintenance. Another reason why the catamaran idea is out.

Suit yourself, but I'm here to reassure you that bigger boats don't necessarily mean more difficulty handling the boat or higher repair costs. An electric or manual toilet on a 35ft boat costs exactly the same as one on a 70ft boat. I wasn't recommending you purchase a seventy foot Oyster, but with your budget, you should be able to afford a well-equipped used 50ft sailboat.

Believe it or not.

My wife and I are both registered nurses. If we'd listened to most of the people on this forum, we'd be putting around a local US maina on a thirty foot something-or-rather instead of experiencing the Med on a fifty three foot sailboat. Don't limit yourself by what other people think is appropriate.

[Desert Rat]

I get it. I think the right decision will be made as long as we continue pursuing time on boats of different sizes, research and of course input from experienced sailors.

I guess another question I have would be boats made in Asia. There are a few manufacturers building reputable designed boats, but I am concerned about quality. Is this a valid concern?

[barnakiel]

I think depending on your time frame making a long list then a short list makes plenty of sense.

From the boats on the short list investigate what is available locally (unless you are willing to travel to buy). Then buy the best (soundest, cleanest) sample.

One could spend years thinking about the cons and pros of every alternative but these years are better spent sailing.

I am not sure what you understand by Asian boats but I know many Hans Christians have been used for many extended sea adventures. They are nothing like Amels though. And what is good for remote locations an long passages is possibly less optimal for ICW. So buy what fits the planned use.

The perfect boat does not exist. There are many good boats though. Get a good one; and of these - the one that appeals to your travel itch. Then go.

Buying is only to some extent a rational process, the rest of it is an emotional exercise.

Look for a boat that makes you feel like going somewhere.

Cheers,
b.

[Desert Rat]

@barnakiel.

I think that all I can do right now is dream and research. I have heard the ICW is a good time but I would have to consider the boats draft and mast height to be able to do it.

The plan/dream (if we purchase on the west coast) is to go as far south as Panama and do the Caribbean. This would be done in short passages.

Ultimately, once I have a few years experience, I'd like to do the South Pacific. This is ultimately my goal. But, with a short draft boat, it wouldn't be conducive to long passages from what I understand.

What I mean by Asian boat is the quality of the build. I guess I am afraid of a cheaply built S/V which would fail us at the worst time. Does that make sense? Its a snobbish way of looking at it, but if the boat is a Robert Perry design, I am sure it would be a reputable build.

[Kenomac]

Tayana 52 sloop or cutter. It's within your budget and perfect for your intended purpose and concerns.

[Adelie]

Be careful, some of the Asian boats claiming to be Perry designs aren't. Call and ask him.

In one of their books L&LPardey discussed the Xmas 1982 debacle in Cabo San Lucas where 29 of 45 anchored cruising sailboats wound up on the beach in an unexpected gale. L&L and a number of the cruisers there made the observation that boats over 37' with just a couple aboard mostly didn't fare well.

Technology has only marginally improved the situation. Mostly with better forecasts but even they are not infallible.

You don't need to be lucky to avoid those kind of problems but you do need to not be unlucky. The longer you sail and the further afield you go the more likely you are to be unlucky.

If you don't already know how to sail and cruise the west coast of the US and Central America is not the place to learn as you go. ICW and the PNW sure. In WA and OR most potential shelters are rivers with bars you don't want to cross in bad weather. In CA and Baja sheltered waters are few and far between.

From Ensenada to Cabo there 1 maybe 2 good shelters in 700nm.

Once you've left the US you need to count on at least 1 day clearing and another day clearing out of every port. After a couple of cycles of that you start making longer passages and fewer port calls with more stops in undeloped places.

I would suggest spending a year in the PNW exploring Puget Sound up into BC maybe even circumnavigating Vancouver Island.

Or buy a boat in the NE US and follow the weather south along the ICW into the Caribbean.

Both have lots of shelter, repair support locations and you can build your experience significantly before jumping onto the deep end.

On the ICW the bridges all have 65' clearance plus adjustments for tides with one exception, a 56' bridge in Miami that you can go around on a weather window.

For the Caribbean 4'6"-5'6" draft is nice but 6' is still fine and even 7' is OK.

With that in mind you could get a Valiant 40 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2351) for about $100k or so on either coast and have plenty of money to outfit and still have an emergency reserve.
The boat draws 6' so you're OK for the Caribbean. Truck height is about 54', 56' with VHF antenna. If you go slow you should be able to scrape under 55'. With stores aboard the boat will probably settle 2"-3" and if you watch the tides you shouldn't even scrape the antenna.

If you think lots of folks will come visit, think again. The few that do will be while you are still near the US and they won't be on passage with you even then so no reason to be choosing boat with a good seaberth for them.

[barnakiel]

I do not see the relationship between shallow draft and usability for ocean passages. And where you want truly shallow draft then nothing beats boats with a lifting keel.

Our friends circumnavigated in an Ovni 385. Draft 7ft board down and less than 2ft (sic!) board up. She can rest on her own bottom too.

Ovnis are often used for long voyages and they are many and thus easy to buy a well taken care of unit.

I worked as a preparateur on a newer bigger Ovni but I always look lovingly towards their older models. Too bad they are out of my financial reach.

Cheers,
b.

[Desert Rat]

From what I understand, a shallow draft would effect the boat sailing windward and I imagine stability due to less weight (at the lowest point) since the smaller keel. These are just guesses with my limited (very limited) knowledge. A deeper draft (larger keel) would mean more stability but it would limit us on sailing in certain areas. Am I thinking correctly? Its ok if I am not its all about learning.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Desert Rat

From what I understand, a shallow draft would effect the boat sailing windward and I imagine stability due to less weight (at the lowest point) since the smaller keel. These are just guesses with my limited (very limited) knowledge. A deeper draft (larger keel) would mean more stability but it would limit us on sailing in certain areas. Am I thinking correctly? Its ok if I am not its all about learning.

I think this is a fairly accurate evaluation except for the possible use of the terms "smaller" and "larger" keel. As an example, my own boat has a 4'3" shoal draft, but yet a very long keel with a large surface area. This keel could be described as "larger" compared to a fin keel boat with a 7' draft,- a deeper, but smaller surface area keel. Draft and weight of the keel will have more significance than the size by surface area.

Your general premise, though, is quite correct. My "coastal cruiser" does very well with the passages I make within the predicted weather of three days, but when subjected to larger waves with a shorter period, my boat is much more active than a deep keel cruiser and lacking the best performance to windward as you describe.

[barnakiel]

Draft alone does not bear on pointing nor on stability.

A Westsail 32 is 5ft draft, a J24 is 4ft draft. A J24 points higher than a Westsail. Also two identical boats with the same draft my point differently - often the one with finer and more developed foils (below water - fin and rudder, above water - sails and spars) will point higher.

BTW As far as your boat can reasonably tack within 90 degrees in flat water there is very little much you will ask for in cruising terms.

Now stability, a bit more complex picture.

In a static situation, a flat and beamy boat is most stable. Look at an Optimist - zero balast, 'zero' draft and super stable. How come, at no draft.

However most sea going boats get in trouble in dynamic situations - they are not pressed by the wind and wiped out like racing dinghies but way more often they get pushed by a wave, trip over their keel, catch water with the lee deck, and get rolled (completely or partly).

In the latter situation draft may be good - but only if it is matched with a ballast slab attached at its very end. Moving the ballast away from the center of roll affects the boat's roll moment of inertia (and so does more weight aloft, which is often bashed by cruisiers but not always rightly so). In such a scenario, more draft (or more ballast) can be seen as a good thing.

However the above is only one aspect or of a multi faceted event. For there is also a school that teaches that a boat with less draft, or more specifically - one with less keel area, will slide sidewise when hit by a wave and thus NOT get tripped over its keel and rolled.

The same principle has been assumed by Ovni designers.

If you like reading moderately technical but superbly interesting books that discuss such matters, I can 100% recommend one written by the Dashews, titled: Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I think it is freely available here:

SetSail FPB » Free Books

So, to put a longer (and more complex) story short, draft alone does not bear on pointing nor on stability of the design.

b.

[Desert Rat]

@barnakiel: WOW! Thank you for the link. So much to knowledge in those books! Its gonna take me a while to read and digest it all. But I'll guarantee I will be back with more questions.