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Old 05-07-2015, 08:42   #586
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Hey look, we agree.... Money talks. Myself I'm glad most boats are never used. Imagine how the water ways would be if 90% took their boats out every weekend. As it is I'm sitting in pairadice (As Zee calls it) without another boat around.
I used to think that in south Florida. You would be out on a weekend, and it would be wall to wall boats, and yet, the marinas were still full.

It would have been like I-95 north from downtown Miami at 5:00 pm if they had ever all tried to go boating at once!
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Old 05-07-2015, 10:35   #587
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Even if 25 percent of boat owners used their boats once a month things would be congested and gridlock on the water. Luckily most folks only use their boat once every 3 years or so. Other then for a weekend party on the dock once a year.

Oddly, I'm ok with all the dock queens being right where they are.
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Old 05-07-2015, 10:35   #588
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

i noticed that in ensenada, where anchoring is outlawed by the marina owners coopertive, the reason given, by rumor, when this was first initiated because they didnt want the area filled with ugly A-8 boats looking like san diego's anchoraage 8, a free anchorage which has been closed permanently.
the reality in ensenada was the marina owners cooperative, invented for this express purpose, i was advised., was initiated to help marina owners not lose money with so many anchored out boats that COULD have been in their marinas bringing in rent for the owners pockets. they were concerned with the potential dollars, as oposed to the actual ones.
in san diego--different story, but same tune...the residents of the free anchorage were relocated to the down town moorings, on the malecon, so they are in easy view of street and all passers by, who think ALL live aboards look like that. yuk. many were derelicts, with methamphetamine users in residence. many were good folks with desire to reside on an anchor not a mooring nor dock. everyone lost.
san diego was concerned about the money spent into pockets of the plolytishuns active in closing down all the "eyesore anchorages" so the land dwellers in penthouse apartments didnt have to see freely anchored boats from their posh high priced apartments. wow it worked.
most of mexico is good for cruisers-- anchoring is easy and popular. we arenot run off. we are income and we move around so they dont get tired of same faces every day.
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:03   #589
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Even if 25 percent of boat owners used their boats once a month things would be congested and gridlock on the water. Luckily most folks only use their boat once every 3 years or so. Other then for a weekend party on the dock once a year.

Oddly, I'm ok with all the dock queens being right where they are.
In 2008 there were no more than two or three boats I'd have identified as derelict in Clipper Cove. Including mine, there were three boats well maintained that moved regularly between Clipper and Sausalito, staying on average about 1 week in each location.

I recall the complaints appearing periodically in Latitude 38's 'Letters' section ranting about the 'anchor outs' in Clipper Cove who were always anchored in the prime spots, causing those who only used their boats on holidays to anchor in less ideal spots. There was much speculation about how those of us who frequented Clipper mishandled our waste. None true. It's the persistent complaints of these infrequent sailors that eventually led to the anchoring restrictions at Clipper Cove.

Now, the same types who complained because an ideal spot to anchor was unavailable to them on their vacation will score again. Another place for them to park their boats 360 or so days per year will be available at the expense of available sheltered anchorage for others. I wonder where the folks who want to use their boat once a year or so will anchor in Clipper Cove then?

Best they start writing letters to Latitude 38 now...
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:49   #590
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Of course its a trick question. Folks that only use their boat once or twice a year, NEVER anchor anyway. They do a day sail with friends and back to the dock.

in 2008, I would see 15-20 boats anchored at china camp on the weekends. The times I've been there these last 3-4 years, I see maybe five boats anchored (not counting the four anchor outs there full time).

From that, I've determined that most folks,and by that I mean those folks actually using their boats, don't anchor anyway. Most go from marina to marina to run A/C and eat at a restaurant.
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Old 05-07-2015, 12:57   #591
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I recall the derelict 86 foot Broward in our marina. In the 3 years I was there, I only saw someone on it twice. But, it belonged to some rich guy who kept paying the slip fees, so no one cared.
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Old 05-07-2015, 13:30   #592
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Of course its a trick question. Folks that only use their boat once or twice a year, NEVER anchor anyway. They do a day sail with friends and back to the dock.

in 2008, I would see 15-20 boats anchored at china camp on the weekends. The times I've been there these last 3-4 years, I see maybe five boats anchored (not counting the four anchor outs there full time).

From that, I've determined that most folks,and by that I mean those folks actually using their boats, don't anchor anyway. Most go from marina to marina to run A/C and eat at a restaurant.
The depth of your wisdom and knowledge astound me. Who then, friend, was writing Latitude 38 complaining about the best spots in Clipper Cove always being taken by 'anchor outs' or 'liveaboards'? Sailors who used their boats daily, on odd or even days of the month, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays or Saturday and Sunday? Male, female, other or none of the above? Shorter than 6' but taller than 5'8"? Owners of boats 40' or more in length? Shorter than 40' but more than 20'? Mono, multi, full or abreviated keel?

All of the above, but no sailors who use their boats only on holidays a couple of times per year at best?
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Old 05-07-2015, 16:14   #593
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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The depth of your wisdom and knowledge astound me. Who then, friend, was writing Latitude 38 complaining about the best spots in Clipper Cove always being taken by 'anchor outs' or 'liveaboards'? Sailors who used their boats daily, on odd or even days of the month, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays or Saturday and Sunday? Male, female, other or none of the above? Shorter than 6' but taller than 5'8"? Owners of boats 40' or more in length? Shorter than 40' but more than 20'? Mono, multi, full or abreviated keel?

All of the above, but no sailors who use their boats only on holidays a couple of times per year at best?
You are just a sweetheart. I'm pretty sure that if I said it got dark at night you would tell me I was wrong, it just wasn't light.

I did not say people did not use their boats, but the facts are that most boats in every marina rarely move in any year. Of the one's that do move over 1/2 are racing and don't keep a serious anchor on their boat. Take the racers off the bay and well over 1/2 the boats go away. With 10,000 boats, some are going to be used. Generally 5% a weekend. My personal experence is few boats anchor out over a weekend, except for holidays and even then it's not lots.

What I'm saying is just what I'm seeing on the bay and in marina's Clipper cove is fairly tiny as it is and the entrance is silted in at low tide, except along the pier. It is the only half way nice anchorage on the bay and 15 boats would fill it nicely.

Lots of folks write Lat38 and lots of folks post here. A few even sail a bit. When was the last time you took your boat out on the bay?? Myself, I've been in 6 anchorages and sailed over 70 miles in the last 2 weeks.
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Old 05-07-2015, 16:40   #594
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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1 In 2008 there were no more than two or three boats I'd have identified as derelict in Clipper Cove.

2 Including mine, there were three boats well maintained that moved regularly between Clipper and Sausalito, staying on average about 1 week in each location.

3 I recall the complaints appearing periodically in Latitude 38's 'Letters' section ranting about the 'anchor outs' in Clipper Cove who were always anchored in the prime spots, causing those who only used their boats on holidays to anchor in less ideal spots.

4 There was much speculation about how those of us who frequented Clipper mishandled our waste. None true. It's the persistent complaints of these infrequent sailors that eventually led to the anchoring restrictions at Clipper Cove.

5 Now, the same types who complained because an ideal spot to anchor was unavailable to them on their vacation will score again. Another place for them to park their boats 360 or so days per year will be available at the expense of available sheltered anchorage for others. I wonder where the folks who want to use their boat once a year or so will anchor in Clipper Cove then?

Best they start writing letters to Latitude 38 now...
1 Maybe then, but here's a 2009 report from Latitude 38 itself/themselves (?) Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude Scroll down, the picture doesn't show the entire field, but there are at least five boats in the photo, and two are below the water!

2 I anchored there frequently, like once a month back then, and I did see more, many more, than you noted.

3 That's really harsh and untrue. Those derelicts were all tucked up in the southwestern "corner" of the cove. The reason that "corner" is preferred is that it was away from the noise of the bridge, still in deep water in the 20' basin, and in most cases out of the wind, hidden behind the causeway.

4 I agree. Waste was not an issue and is almost always a bogus claim from idiots.

5 I sail during the week, on weekends, on holidays and on vacation. What are you trying to say, 'cuz it makes little sense to me. There are friends of mine and, for example, me, who, unlike 99% of the rest of the boats on the Bay (I agree with sc34) don't ever anchor, and probably don't know how to. For those of us who do, and I anchor out at least two nights every time I go out, which is every other week if not more, there actually ARE many boats who use Clipper Cove. It's not only for the once-a-year sailor. That's simply nonsense.

Letters to Latitude will not stop the marina expansion from happening. What seems to be keeping it back is 1) the economy; 2) the myriad permits they need to get; 3) whatever transfer needs to be finalized between the Navy and the City.

It may be time to get back in the swing of things and start helping out with your ideas of THINGS THAT WORK.
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Old 05-07-2015, 16:40   #595
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I did not say people did not use their boats, but the facts are that most boats in every marina rarely move in any year. Of the one's that do move over 1/2 are racing and don't keep a serious anchor on their boat. Take the racers off the bay and well over 1/2 the boats go away. With 10,000 boats, some are going to be used. Generally 5% a weekend.
Jeezus, you just spout this stuff as if it were gospel and you had proof. But it is merely, all of it, your inexpert opinion. Hell, you don't even keep your boat on the Bay. I can tell you that all the numbers you've tossed about in the above post are inaccurate. That's something that, as an engineer, one would think you'd be more careful about. And then there's this "holier than thou because I'm an anchor-out liveaboard" attitude. Unbelievable.
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Old 05-07-2015, 16:46   #596
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Jeezus, you just spout this stuff as if it were gospel and you had proof. But it is merely, all of it, your inexpert opinion. Hell, you don't even keep your boat on the Bay. I can tell you that all the numbers you've tossed about in the above post are inaccurate. That's something that, as an engineer, one would think you'd be more careful about. And then there's this "holier than thou because I'm an anchor-out liveaboard" attitude. Unbelievable.
Matt, I don't read it that way at all. Plus, I agree. 99% of the boats in my marina (Grand/Alameda) never leave their slips. And 99% of those never, NEVER, have anyone come down to them AT ALL!!!

This is a reality.

I'm an engineer, too.
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Old 05-07-2015, 17:03   #597
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I didn't say in which direction her numbers were inaccurate, merely that they were inaccurate. In any case, these "statistics" are completely invented but stated as if they were fact. Very annoying, IMHO.
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Old 05-07-2015, 17:22   #598
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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1 Maybe then, but here's a 2009 report from Latitude 38 itself/themselves (?) Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude Scroll down, the picture doesn't show the entire field, but there are at least five boats in the photo, and two are below the water!
Your point? Maybe they were scuttled by angry boatowners following confrontations with the authorities/enactment of the restrictions. There were no boats below the water when I left in August, 2008 for San Diego...

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2 I anchored there frequently, like once a month back then, and I did see more, many more, than you noted.
Where did I say anything about the total number of boats? Didn't. I mentioned the three boats I'd consider derelict. I mentioned three well maintained boats that alternated anchorages between Clipper Cove and Sausalito. One of those was mine. There were usually more than six boats anchored in Clipper Cove, most that never moved.

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3 That's really harsh and untrue. Those derelicts were all tucked up in the southwestern "corner" of the cove. The reason that "corner" is preferred is that it was away from the noise of the bridge, still in deep water in the 20' basin, and in most cases out of the wind, hidden behind the causeway.
Harsh? Untrue? Word for word, how?

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4 I agree. Waste was not an issue and is almost always a bogus claim from idiots.
O.k.

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5 I sail during the week, on weekends, on holidays and on vacation. What are you trying to say, 'cuz it makes little sense to me. There are friends of mine and, for example, me, who, unlike 99% of the rest of the boats on the Bay (I agree with sc34) don't ever anchor, and probably don't know how to. For those of us who do, and I anchor out at least two nights every time I go out, which is every other week if not more, there actually ARE many boats who use Clipper Cove. It's not only for the once-a-year sailor. That's simply nonsense.
According to what you've said, it's the once-a-year sailor and an indeterminate number of sailors who anchor every other week or so... Who then can we presume were submitting complaint letters to Lat38?

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It may be time to get back in the swing of things and start helping out with your ideas of THINGS THAT WORK.
Not nice.
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Old 05-07-2015, 17:48   #599
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I didn't say in which direction her numbers were inaccurate, merely that they were inaccurate. In any case, these "statistics" are completely invented but stated as if they were fact. Very annoying, IMHO.
fast, I always thought all of what we write, kind of a courtesy in all of our correspondence, came with the caveat that, unless quoted from a reputable source, they are OPINIONS.

Least mine are...
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Old 05-07-2015, 17:59   #600
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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fast, I always thought all of what we write, kind of a courtesy in all of our correspondence, came with the caveat that, unless quoted from a reputable source, they are OPINIONS.

Least mine are...
So, maybe you'll exercise a bit of restraint hencefort when commenting on my observations and opinions? Quite frankly you're last comment to me suggests you have all the answers.

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It may be time to get back in the swing of things and start helping out with your ideas of THINGS THAT WORK.
Pray tell, what things?
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