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Old 01-07-2019, 10:28   #1
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I'm in a quagmire and need help

I currently own a sailboat and have found a buyer. The boat is in Mexico, the buyer is in the states, and the boat is registered Canadian, which is where I currently am. What do I need to complete this sale, with the least amount of headache for both me and the buyer? I'm ashamed to admit it, but while I have Canadian Registered papers, I'm not sure if I have a piece of paper which qualifies as a "title", (does Canada provide that?) and if I do, it's on the boat in Mexico.
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Old 01-07-2019, 13:12   #2
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

If I he buyer is going to document boat in states they will need copy of registration, proof of removal from Canadian registration and a notarized bill of sale to send to USCG.

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Old 01-07-2019, 14:24   #3
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Heather.
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Old 01-07-2019, 14:45   #4
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Thank you for responding Freedom45. Okay, that makes sense. My other dilemma is that the boat is in Mexico with an active TIP, which I'll have to cancel so that the new owner can reinstate. Who knew it was so hard to sell a boat!

The second happiest day of a boat owner's life is within grasp......
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:21   #5
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

No, you are in a quandary. A quagmire is a bog.

Sorry I can't help you with the big problem, though.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:31   #6
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

You might ask a yacht broker in your area who has done this for advice. Even if you paid them a small sum it might be worth it.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:19   #7
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

I don’t have an answer but some advice gleaned via a close friend selling a Canadian registered vessel in the US. GET A LAWYER!

My friend researched this issue at length, talked to customs all over, talked to lots of brokers, gave up and got a lawyer. It turns out the lawyer could not unravel the conflicting rules and finally offered a best guess, which was painless but a bit convoluted.

Good luck!
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:34   #8
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Tough one. Dealt with this in the past. Found one lawyer in WA State who was an expert. Tried to find his again a couple of years ago but he passed away. Very difficult to find someone who knows the subtleties of marine law.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:40   #9
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

A lawyers er might be a good bet for sure. I used to work with the high end yacht brokers, million dollar minimums and many in several million dollar range. These people sell all over the world and have experience.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:48   #10
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

I don't think this is rocket science.


The first step would be to re-establish title in Canada and get proof of ownership.


The second step is to figure out where the buyer wants to register it. International brokers do this all the time.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:04   #11
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

To assist you in getting out of your bog linked below is the online USCG Bill of Sale document which is to be completed / executed by the seller in the presence of the notary. Just type in the details of each box then print and take to the notary.

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...-09-113141-317

Note each of the detailed line item instructions for specific guidance in completion.

Canadian Vessel Licence versus Registration

Licensing is an identification system for boats. A boat licence does not provide clear title or ownership of a boat.

Registration is a procedure for documentation of ownership or title in Canada with a "name" and "port of registration". Licensing is a procedure which identifies a vessel with a letter-number combination after having paid sales tax in a province or territory, and does not necessarily imply ownership or title.

In the USA, a vessel owner has the option to "register" at the State level which State can provide and may require titling, or to "document" the vessel with the US Coast Guard Documentation Center which documenting of the vessel is a Federal form of titling to provide proof of ownership and to which liens can be applied on the vessel. A boat can only be titled once, so if it is "documented" in the USA and thus has Federal titling, any additional required State registration will not include titling of the vessel, but will provide permit / license to be used in a State's waters. State vessel registration laws vary by State. Vessels are not required to be documented in the USA, they can be registered [and titled] at the State level. Documentation with the USCG is appropriate for US flagging and international travel of the vessel.

Copied below is the contact data for Canada's vessel registration bureau of Transport Canada, they should be able to provide guidance as to the "deregistration" procedure and attainment of proof of deregistration for use by the new owner's documentation of the vessel with the US Coast Guard Documentation Center [assuming the new owner desires to or is allowed to flag the vessel with the USA, their issue as the buyer not your issue as the seller]:

Email: VR-IB@tc.gc.ca

North American toll-free number: 1-877-242-8770
Local number (a long distance charge will apply): 613-991-2188
Teletypewriter / TDD: 1-888-675-6863
Facsimile: 613-998-0637

Regional Contacts: Visit the Ports of Registry page for a list of regional contacts and e-mail addresses

Mailing Address:
Transport Canada
Marine Safety (AMSED)
Tower C, Place de Ville
330 Sparks Street, 3rd Floor
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0N5

A peculiarity of Canadian English language:
Canadian spelling is different, Eh.
Canadian spelling changes depending on the usage of the word. The noun "a boat licence" is spelled with a "c". When used as a verb or adjective it is spelled with an "s": "to license a boat", "licensing a boat", or a "licensed boat".

Best regards.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:07   #12
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Hello,
If you cancel the Tip in Mexico, you will have to leave with your boat. If you sell it with an active TIP, then the new owner will have a big problem.
This because under TIP, Mexican taxes are not payed. Mexican TIP admission was introduced to facilitate in and out going with boats and vehicles from Mexico, Marina's and boatyards won't accept boats with TIP issues because they are fined too.
In 2017, in San-Carlos, authorities were looking for these kind of boats.
Good luck
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:42   #13
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by CdS2 Roland View Post
Hello,
If you cancel the Tip in Mexico, you will have to leave with your boat. If you sell it with an active TIP, then the new owner will have a big problem.
This because under TIP, Mexican taxes are not payed. Mexican TIP admission was introduced to facilitate in and out going with boats and vehicles from Mexico, Marina's and boatyards won't accept boats with TIP issues because they are fined too.
In 2017, in San-Carlos, authorities were looking for these kind of boats.
Good luck
Excellent point, the Temporary Import Permit likely prohibits the sale of the vessel in Mexico. The vessel likely needs to be imported into Mexico before any sale of the vessel would be allowed in Mexico. Recommend that you research the Mexican law and procedures regarding importation [customs duty fees] and sale of a vessel [e.g. sales, or value added tax] or to make arrangement for the departure of the vessel from Mexico. And after importing the vessel it likely needs to be registered / documented with Mexico so that its title can be transferred to the new owner.

With the TIP your vessel is just supposed to be visiting Mexico, which implies entry and exit, not importing the vessel for resale purposes.

A similar issue likely would arise as to importing the vessel into the USA.

So it does look like you may have a bit of a quagmire within your quandary.

Note that Trump administration imposed an import tariff of 10% on Canadian built boats when they are brought into the States.
Depending on the origin of manufacturing of the Canadian register vessel the new owner may be faced with a rather onerous duty if they bring it into the USA.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:48   #14
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Spotted this webpage on the International Yacht Brokers Association:

https://iyba.yachts/news/mexico-mtip...uld-know-about


"West coast yachtsmen and brokers are very aware that entering into Mexico for a pleasure cruise requires filling out paperwork to create an MTIP (Mexico Temporary Import Permit). The US requires non-US flagged boats to fill out a US cruising permit. It is a standard procedure when visiting a foreign country to arrive with a Q flag, follow their laws and when admitted fly their country courtesy flag.

What you may not know is that there are some big differences between how the U.S. and Mexico receive visiting yachts and if you are not careful it can cause a lot of grief.

The CYBA (California Yacht Brokers Association) now requires the owner of any boat listed for sale to answer if the vessel has ever been to Mexico. If the answer is “yes” the owner needs to have the MTIP paperwork (physical hard copy) ready and available for cancellation at closing. I have taken this concern one step further and include the following language in my purchase and sale agreements to learn about each vessel’s Mexico history as part of the due diligence I perform for my buyers:

If SELLER has traveled to Mexico with VESSEL and has an MTIP (Mexico Temporary Import Permit), SELLER agrees to and is responsible (at SELLER expense) to cancel the MTIP and to provide proof of this cancelation to BUYER and BROKERS before CLOSING.

Recently I got a frenzied call from a fellow IYBA Florida broker who sold a boat I had previously been associated asking for my help in tracking down previous owners. Both the new owner and broker were innocently naďve that this vessel had previously been entered into the Mexican web-based tracking system. Additionally, neither the broker, nor the client had ever heard about the MTIP paperwork and were completely taken by surprise.

When the unsuspecting buyer cleared into Mexico (months after the purchase and after transiting the Panama Canal then heading north) he was caught up in a very serious violation with severe and immediate consequences. Since the previous owner (not my client) had never cancelled the MTIP the Mexican authorities impounded the vessel and threatened the new owner with incarceration. Thus launched a series of phone calls trying to find the illusive MTIP paper, an incredibly important document required to resolve this situation that appears to be lost. A US marine attorney is trying to assist, but this is a situation that could have and should have been avoided.

Coincidentally, I just closed on a 55’ trawler in Florida. It had cruised on the U.S. west coast and come through the Canal to Florida so had obviously traveled through Mexico. We knew about the MTIP when the boat was listed (question in the CYBA listing agreement) and reminded the seller about the MTIP upon receipt of the offer through the purchase agreement clause above.

Once we had acceptance after survey, the seller forwarded the original MTIP document to the maritime attorney in San Diego and paid a very reasonable fee of $300 for the MTIP to be cancelled. My customers will be free to clear in to Mexico with a clean slate and can start afresh by filling out a new MTIP.

Please review the importance of understanding MTIPs with your fellow brokers and consider

a) Asking your sellers about MTIPs when they list and,
b) Including language requesting MTIP cancellation at closing when you write up an agreement."
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:58   #15
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Re: I'm in a quagmire and need help

Reference regarding TIP cancellation complication:

http://https://www.vallartayachtclub...tempest-part-2
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