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Old 20-12-2014, 06:27   #61
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Originally Posted by Brob2 View Post
Would you also agree that by using China- made goods or burning Saudi oil one is also supporting a repressive government?

I find it difficult to argue your point if you also apply it elsewhere.
Hard to argue, it applys to all
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Old 20-12-2014, 06:50   #62
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

It's a shame the US media does not cover the truth about the embargo.

It has ZERO to due with supporting an oppressive regime.

The formerly landed, oppressive (upper caste) families fled the island after the revolution. They took cash, jewels, nice cars on th ferry. The used those assets to setup shop and the caste system in Miami.

That land would be worth billions today. They want those billions. That's why they spend millions buying guys like Marco Rubio and the dozens of other Cuban congressman to bluster about oppression in Cuba.

They want the land back or no deal. They're quite happy to keep the lower caste folks still in Cuba poor and oppressed as that's how it was when they ran things anyway.
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Old 20-12-2014, 07:05   #63
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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It's a shame the US media does not cover the truth about the embargo.

It has ZERO to due with supporting an oppressive regime.

The formerly landed, oppressive (upper caste) families fled the island after the revolution. They took cash, jewels, nice cars on th ferry. The used those assets to setup shop and the caste system in Miami.

That land would be worth billions today. They want those billions. That's why they spend millions buying guys like Marco Rubio and the dozens of other Cuban congressman to bluster about oppression in Cuba.

They want the land back or no deal. They're quite happy to keep the lower caste folks still in Cuba poor and oppressed as that's how it was when they ran things anyway.
The picture you paint here isn't exactly representative of the truth either...
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Old 20-12-2014, 07:09   #64
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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The unasked question: "What conditions would make Cubans do stuff like this?"
As I often state: There is really only one thing you need to know about Cuba: Almost everybody who has the choice between "Cuba" and "Elsewhere" chooses "Elsewhere".
Even the Castro clan, when one of them needs surgery chooses Spain...
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Old 20-12-2014, 07:19   #65
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

You're correct. Maybe that's what killed Chavez, all that surgery he got in Cuba.

But seriously the cruising ain't great. It's a major forbidden fruit thing. There are perhaps 100 miles of the total coast that are really nice.

The main draw will be the big marinas and resorts that are eventually built.
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Old 20-12-2014, 07:43   #66
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

The whole point of the embargo was to create so much hardship for the Cuban people that they would rise up & overthrow their government, just like they did to the previous government. It's kind of like circling the castle & starving the people out. It's a very cold & callous plan that clearly has not worked but some here still contend that causing more suffering will lead to our desired outcome.
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Old 20-12-2014, 08:17   #67
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

The major reason for continuing the Cuban embargo is the human rights violations occurring on the island.
However, Freedom House’s annual rankings on Civil Liberties and Political Rights place Cuba ahead of North Korea, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Eritria, Equitorial Guinea, Somalia, and Sudan. *
From this list, only North Korea and Sudan are subject to any U.S. economic sanctions, with the other countries enjoying normalized trade and diplomatic relationships with the United States.

* Ten countries were given the lowest possible rating of 7 for both political rights and civil liberties.
Central African Republic, Somalia, Equatorial Guinea, Sudan, Eritrea, Syria, North Korea, Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia, & Uzbekistan

Cuba was rated (1 = best, 7 = worst)
Freedom Rating 6.5 (Civil Liberties 6 & Political Rights 7)

See ➥ https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...014#.VJWRrcM8A
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Old 20-12-2014, 10:12   #68
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

Hi
So I've read all the posts of how bad the Cuban government and communism has been for the Cubans and I have some questions that I'm hoping can be answered.
1 How many of you have been to Cuba ?
2 How much of the hardship was caused by the American Embargo ?

I am no political expert in fact I find politics quite boring but I have been to Cuba 6 times in the last 4 yrs and the changes I have witnessed are enormous. Locals can now have small businesses
taxi's, restaurants, shops and yes they keep their profits after licence fees.
There is international tv, even American shows and internet, now prices for these luxuries are expensive but available.
Tipping is allowed at hotels and the locals keep the tips not the administration, so to say spending money in Cuba supports the regime is an ignorant statement

Will communism ever leave Cuba , probably not but from what I've seen the restrictions are becoming less. Who wants to give up free health care and education, ( That includes going to university in other countries)

To live in what happened 30 plus yrs ago makes no sense to me, Every other country has stepped up to the plate to help Cuba , There is a brand new marina and hotel that was just finished waiting for American boaters built by a Spanish hotel chain .

By the way I'm not a communist I'm Canadian(Ha Ha)
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Old 20-12-2014, 11:01   #69
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Unless Cuba changes it's policies that it has for cruisers from other countries in place, now, that's not likely to happen. Right now, the only people who get to interact with cruisers (or just about any other foreign visitor) are loyal party members.

Ask someone whose been there what happens if a normal Cuban citizen tries to come out to your boat to visit you (and, for the obvious reason). Boats equal possible escape in Cuba.
.
Well you can ask me, I've been there. I won't say that you don't know what you're talking about, but, I question if you've been there or not.
I'm much more concerned for the Cubans who will lose their culture once we all start tromping around. Our embargo's on ag chemicals going to their Country caused sever food shortages. They went to work on organic ag production and now lead the world. There current yields are back up to about 95% of our Petro based ag production. I'm very impressed with those "Americans". There is almost NO racial problems and no slums. Their revolution drove a lot of really nasty actors out along with undoubtedly some good people. Gambling joints, brothels and most other pre-revolution enterprises allowed for almost NO trickle down economic development. They had a huge gap between the rich and poor and finally the mass of the poor got tired of it. Sound familiar? Occupy/Tea Baggers??
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Old 20-12-2014, 11:03   #70
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

Oh...Just to be clear...I've run my own business for over 20 yrs. I'm no communist...just an aware traveler.
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Old 20-12-2014, 12:00   #71
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

I saw lots of poor people in Cuba. I did not see any extremely poor or trying people.


In contrast to other Central American countries, where their are lots of extreme poverty.

Now it helpful to repost and repost the STATED reasons for the embrargo, but the reality is simply different. Why don't we have embrargos with all those countries on the bottom of Gord's list?
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Old 20-12-2014, 12:35   #72
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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No, actually he did not overstep anything. Which is why this is mostly a symbolic gesture and very little has actually changed. The embargo is still in place, and Americans still cannot legally travel to Cuba except under specific, approved conditions.

What the President did is only what he is authorized to do. Though he is talking about normalizing relations with Cuba, he has done no such thing. The only thing that has been normalized--the only thing that he CAN normalize--is the narrow field of diplomatic relations. That means we'll have an embassy there, and they'll have an embassy here. We'll talk. That's all. Very little else of any significance has changed.

Further changes will be up to Congress to enact.


While I have a great deal of sympathy for those who lost everything by fleeing communist Cuba, the fact is that this is hardly anything new. Refugees have been doing exactly the same since the beginning of time. Most of the people who first populated what is now the United States left everything behind to flee some sort of oppression. That is an inevitable consequence of becoming a refugee and fleeing an oppressive regime.

As such, at this point, it is irrelevant. They fled. It's done. If the expat Cubans in America cannot get past this point, and accept the fact that they made a choice to leave their belongings behind, then no progress will ever be made.

Or perhaps I should say, when progress finally is made, it will be made despite them--without their cooperation, and without their involvement. Because eventually progress WILL be made.

Don,
You are technically correct in your first point about the presidential powers granted to a president. However, the reason that Obama's action angered many in the US and was considered as "overstepping" his powers is because, as with many of his programs( ie; Obamacare is the most egregious), he refuses to consider any opposing views/considerations and effectively negates almost half of the American electorate in doing so. This was not a frivolous matter and there should have been ,at least, a general consensus, parity and approval among both parties and their leaders. This is where the intent of Democracy and a democratic government is violated.
In regards to the loss of personal property by Cubans who fled after Castro's revolution, the reason that many left(especially among the business/upper classes) is that their homes, businesses and properties were expropriated by the Communist government and redistributed to the government and the general population. Also, international businesses were confiscated and their owners/management thrown out of the country. The remaining Cubans who left, who were the majority, left because they could not live in a repressive, Marxist, Fascist, Big Brother government where personal freedom no longer exited. This is in no way similar to your statement that "Most of the people who populated . . . the US left everything behind to flee some sort of oppression." The pilgrims who first came to North America were fleeing religious prosecution and left with whatever possessions they owned. Their lands/homes were not confiscated by the English Monarchy and they were dispossessed of nothing other than religious freedom. The Cubans did not choose to "leave their belongings behind." This is patently untrue and historically inaccurate. They were robbed of their life's hard work as well as their liberty. A friend of mine in the 70's was the son of the Cuban ambassador to France. Their family lived in Cuba for over 200 years. They were a wealthy, successful and highly educated family. In their family residence, they were given 24 hours to leave since a Cuban working class family of eight were better served in the size of a house they owned. They left with nothing other than the clothes they wore. All family furniture, personal belonging and mementoes remained behind. To trivialize this historic fact without any attempt at a fair solution or some form of reparations from this Communist regime is patently wrong. It has been done with the American Indians, American Blacks through affirmative action, the Jews of the Holocaust and even in East Germany where former landowners ,before the Berlin Wall, had the opportunity to recently reclaim their former family properties. Should we resume relations with Cuba? Yes, I am in favor of doing so but not without any cost or concessions from the brutally repressive Communist government. For those of us who have traveled to Cuba and think that everything is fine and the people are happy, my personal opinion is that you are very naÔve and have been allowed to see exactly what the Cuban government wanted you to see. I still am fortunate to count as my friends Cubans who have first hand knowledge of what is really the reality in Cuba today. In can assure you, it is not the rosy picture painted by some on this forum.
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Old 20-12-2014, 14:08   #73
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

rognvald
I do not think I am naÔve nor blind to Cuba, that story you told sounds exactly like a scene out of the movie Dr Zhivago. Its time to move on . The past is the past and the future is the way to go. Live in the past and nothing changes , look into the future and changes will happen.

Happy sailing
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Old 20-12-2014, 15:01   #74
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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The whole point of the embargo was to create so much hardship for the Cuban people that they would rise up & overthrow their government, just like they did to the previous government. It's kind of like circling the castle & starving the people out. It's a very cold & callous plan that clearly has not worked but some here still contend that causing more suffering will lead to our desired outcome.

Scout,
So it's America's fault that the Cuban people are suffering? It has nothing to do with the failure of Communism and its principles in the 20th/21st Century? And we can still blame it on the US even though Cuba can trade with everyone else in the world? And it's America's fault that the average Cuban makes $20.00 per month and the vast majority of Cubans still work for the government? And, if Communism works so well, why have both Russia and China adopted Free Market Capitalism in lieu of state controlled business? Cuba is not an enigma. It is quite clear. The suffering of the Cuban people is a direct result of a Fascist Communist government that controls every aspect of the average Cuban's life. . . from his morning coffee(that is rationed) to the bed he sleeps in at night. That is unless you are one of the leaders . . . and that, my friend, is a clearly different case. Vive Fidel . . . Vive Raul . . . see ya soon at Marina Hemingway! Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 20-12-2014, 16:12   #75
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

People, we've had to delete several tendentious and aggressive posts.

Please follow the Forum rules and keep the discussion polite, respectful, and cruising-oriented. This is no place for political squabbles.
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