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Captain Bill · 26-09-2008, 19:28

I went out on the web and looked at the Villamonte-Marquez decision and as I read it, it would seem to only apply to the Coast Guard and Customs/border patrol. It also seemed to me to be strictly construed in the case of the coast guard to be limited to inspection of documentation and actually did not allow for general search of non-public areas of the boat. It did seem to allow the customs people to do searches of any vessel anywhere in the US. It did not say anything about allowing state law enforcement officers the same privilege. In fact, the only inference I saw that it would allow any law enforcement officers to board and search a vessel was in the dissenting opinion which does not have the force of law. The opinion as I read it simply stated that CG and Customs officials are allowed to board your boat to inspect documentation and in this specific case did not have to close their eyes to bales of marijuana they saw in the cabin after smelling same. I think that it takes a very "liberal" reading of the decision to say it allows state law enforcement agencies such as the FWC to board any boat and search it. I don't even see that it allows them to board your boat without a warrant or probable cause. If this is the decision state law enforcement is using to justify random boardings, some savvy lawyer should have their lunch. Are their additional decisions that clearly give this right to state Law enforcement. I have a real problem these days with the general suspension of constitutional rights in this country. I have an issue knowing that the government has the right without a duly sworn warrant to break into my vessel even while it's in its berth just because they get a wild hair. I am old enough to remember when we had a free country.

wolfenzee · 27-09-2008, 10:28

The US Customs boat that boared me, did a complete search of every locker (while in nasty seas), I still had to clear customs when I got in. The USCG when boarding checks every nook and cranny and does a "drug swab" if and residue is found your boat *will* be confiscated, regardless of who or when the drug use happened.
I am seriously considering moving me and my boat to BC, would remain a US Citizen with "permanent resident status" in Canada. It's pretty bad when the state of affairs makes me feel uncomfortable in my own country.

bill352 · 28-09-2008, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I went out on the web and looked at the Villamonte-Marquez decision

Well, that was 25 years ago, and I have no idea how it has been interpreted and what effect it has had as precedent, or even if it has been superceded. Maybe someone with a LexisNexis subscription can look it up and let us know. For someone who hasn't read the case (and I don't blame you) the dissent states, among other things:

"It also holds that police on a roving, random patrol may stop and board any vessel, at any time, on any navigable waters accessible to the open sea, with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that there has been a crime or a border crossing, and without any limits whatever on their discretion to impose this invasion of privacy." and;

"Today, for the first time in the nearly 200-year history of the Fourth Amendment, the Court approves a completely random seizure and detention of persons and an entry onto private, noncommercial premises by police officers, without any limitations whatever on the officers' discretion or any safeguards against abuse."

As you say, the dissent does not have the same legal force as the opinion itself, but it does represent the opinion of a Supreme Court justice on the meaning of a Supreme Court decision, and that beats my two pair. Also, if you care to take on the Feds on this issue, and your savvy lawyer does manage to eat their lunch, he or she will also have eaten your lunch, your breakfast, your dinner and your complimentary peanuts by the time you pay him or her off. You can't afford justice even if you're right.

But the question, as we say on the Supreme Court, is moot. After the hysteria of the intervening years, law enforcement will do anything it cares to do. If you object, they cry "drugs" or "terrorist", and you are dead meat. (Been through airport security lately?) There is no recourse unless you have a lot more money than anyone here; and if you do, you are insulated from the problem anyway. When was the last time Warren Buffett went through airport security? When was the last time Tiger Woods's yacht was boarded and searched?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not crying "eat the rich" here. I say good for them, and if you are content with getting different treatment from law enforcement, then good for you. Just for the record, I have never been abused or harassed by law enforcement; and being a straight white solvent property-owning male of a certain age (who lives ashore, I should add), I probably never will be. But when I see my neighbor's house on fire, I feel I should at least alert the neighborhood.

Little Otter · 28-09-2008, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Sully,

I am telling you they are using us to practice on

. Hopefully they never sneak up on someone sitting next to artillery

.

I know what you mean, I have a story that happened last weekend, my friend (same one with the desert eagle) bought a boat that had been used once (a Trimiran) and we were taking it out just beyond the coastal horizon, out of nowhere comes this 41' USCG boat and they told us to heave to and prepare to be boarded (at least they told us this time) so we did what we were told and they came aboard after scratching the new paint, they went through the boat and didn't find anything of course but I noticed that the commander of they boarding party was a Ltjg. ( the lowest rank in the officer grade but an officer nonetheless) when I asked why he was in command of he party and not back on the ship he was impressed that I knew he was an officer and he shouldn't be there so he told me the truth, get this he said, and I quote "....this is not a very experianced crew in fact they are all 19, and we did this not because you were doing anything wrong but because they needed PRACTICE..." and they haden't seen any other boats out of the sight of the people on the beach nor had this crew gotten to "... PRACTICE boarding a sail boat..." he then proceeded to tell the crew to return to the ship and told us that it had "... been very gracious of us to allow them to use the boat for PRACTICE and for us to have a good day." as they were leaving they scratched the paint again and had every gun on the boat pointed at us. when we went back below we found the place a wreck with several things missing such as a new $4,000.00 portable GPS unit, $250.00 from each of our wallets that were laying in the drawer of the nav. station, over $600.00 worth of scuba gear (regs., gauges, octos., and 2 $99.00 titanium dive knives), and other miscellanious items all totaling close to $6,000.00 worth of stuff that we wont get back and we don't have the money to replace that stuff right now, so if you get boarded make shure that everything you want to keep is locked in a safe that you have to open and watch them go through it and make shure they put it back the way they found it. So yes they are now using us for practice ( and I got it staight from the horses mouth) and it is pathetic when you have to lock stuff up to keep it from being stolen form you by the people that are supposed to be protecting you.

Chief Engineer · 29-09-2008, 14:00

If this actually occured, I would be in touch with the Ships Commanding officer immediately...report it to the USCG Group Headquarters for that area and send a copy of correspondence to USCG JAG....as well as Congressman and Senator.

I would also be so p'od I would contact every news station as soon as I got back to port.

If you haven't done any of that then I think sumfin smells

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Otter

I know what you mean, I have a story that happened last weekend, my friend (same one with the desert eagle) bought a boat that had been used once (a Trimiran) and we were taking it out just beyond the coastal horizon, out of nowhere comes this 41' USCG boat and they told us to heave to and prepare to be boarded (at least they told us this time) so we did what we were told and they came aboard after scratching the new paint, they went through the boat and didn't find anything of course but I noticed that the commander of they boarding party was a Ltjg. ( the lowest rank in the officer grade but an officer nonetheless) when I asked why he was in command of he party and not back on the ship he was impressed that I knew he was an officer and he shouldn't be there so he told me the truth, get this he said, and I quote "....this is not a very experianced crew in fact they are all 19, and we did this not because you were doing anything wrong but because they needed PRACTICE..." and they haden't seen any other boats out of the sight of the people on the beach nor had this crew gotten to "... PRACTICE boarding a sail boat..." he then proceeded to tell the crew to return to the ship and told us that it had "... been very gracious of us to allow them to use the boat for PRACTICE and for us to have a good day." as they were leaving they scratched the paint again and had every gun on the boat pointed at us. when we went back below we found the place a wreck with several things missing such as a new $4,000.00 portable GPS unit, $250.00 from each of our wallets that were laying in the drawer of the nav. station, over $600.00 worth of scuba gear (regs., gauges, octos., and 2 $99.00 titanium dive knives), and other miscellanious items all totaling close to $6,000.00 worth of stuff that we wont get back and we don't have the money to replace that stuff right now, so if you get boarded make shure that everything you want to keep is locked in a safe that you have to open and watch them go through it and make shure they put it back the way they found it. So yes they are now using us for practice ( and I got it staight from the horses mouth) and it is pathetic when you have to lock stuff up to keep it from being stolen form you by the people that are supposed to be protecting you.

also the part about guns being aimed at you...hogwash.

why didn't you put any fenders out?

Little Otter · 29-09-2008, 15:20

I know it sounds funny and i know they don't launch 41' ers from ships but we didn't see it come (probly cause we were below deck until we heard them telling us what to do.) we dont like making trouble and we didn't have a list of stuff on board so we didn't have any "documented proof" that we had what we said we had. i also said "pointed" not "aimed". oh and btw we didn't have fenders because we forgot them in the truck when they took us to the boat.We would rather just buy more stuff and be more carefull next time than spend a bunch of money on lawyers and lawsuits and stuff and if it was only two of theboarding party then they would all suffer and have their carrers ruined even if they didn't do anything, besides were just simple country boys and don't like a bunch of publicity, to dramatic and we don't do drama.

Chief Engineer · 29-09-2008, 16:35

Who cares about their careers?

If there had been innocent among them it woulda come out in the wash.

Therapy · 29-09-2008, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Otter

I know what you mean, I have a story that happened last weekend, my friend (same one with the desert eagle) bought a boat that had been used once (a Trimiran) and we were taking it out just beyond the coastal horizon, out of nowhere comes this 41' USCG boat and they told us to heave to and prepare to be boarded (at least they told us this time) so we did what we were told and they came aboard after scratching the new paint, they went through the boat and didn't find anything of course but I noticed that the commander of they boarding party was a Ltjg. ( the lowest rank in the officer grade but an officer nonetheless) when I asked why he was in command of he party and not back on the ship he was impressed that I knew he was an officer and he shouldn't be there so he told me the truth, get this he said, and I quote "....this is not a very experianced crew in fact they are all 19, and we did this not because you were doing anything wrong but because they needed PRACTICE..." and they haden't seen any other boats out of the sight of the people on the beach nor had this crew gotten to "... PRACTICE boarding a sail boat..." he then proceeded to tell the crew to return to the ship and told us that it had "... been very gracious of us to allow them to use the boat for PRACTICE and for us to have a good day." as they were leaving they scratched the paint again and had every gun on the boat pointed at us. when we went back below we found the place a wreck with several things missing such as a new $4,000.00 portable GPS unit, $250.00 from each of our wallets that were laying in the drawer of the nav. station, over $600.00 worth of scuba gear (regs., gauges, octos., and 2 $99.00 titanium dive knives), and other miscellanious items all totaling close to $6,000.00 worth of stuff that we wont get back and we don't have the money to replace that stuff right now, so if you get boarded make shure that everything you want to keep is locked in a safe that you have to open and watch them go through it and make shure they put it back the way they found it. So yes they are now using us for practice ( and I got it staight from the horses mouth) and it is pathetic when you have to lock stuff up to keep it from being stolen form you by the people that are supposed to be protecting you.

GMAFB.

And you didn't see them leave with all this stuff?

Puullleeeesssseee!

Little Otter · 29-09-2008, 18:29

question im not trying to start an argument as i said i don't like drama but do you nohow many huge pockets are on those uniforms ..... ill tell you 17!!!!! thats alot of pockets that already look like they have stuff in them how are you supposed to tell huh huh. thats all i'm going to say but it happened wether you want to beleive it or not. END OF DISCUSSION.!!

Chief Engineer · 29-09-2008, 18:59

Well, all I can say is that I am not afraid of any drama.

This is the USA and last I heard, we did not condone our men and women in uniform acting like some stereotyped Carribean Officials.

This story hold less water than some holding tanks I've seen.

amytom · 29-09-2008, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

My understanding while reading this last sentence. Is if you question the authority they just might come back with a positive instead of a negative? Is that what you are claiming? Is this your experience while doing your job?

When I was boarded it was a case of I have the gun, and you will submit. After speaking with the C.O. when I finally anchored. In defending the C.G. he stated because we are hiring so quick. We cannot always pick the most qualified personel.

These crews are using us as practice. Some have become carried away with power.

In my current position working on trace detection equipment I have never seen any LEO not act reposonsibly (with the exception of Jamaica). During my Navy tour I saw what can happen when tensions rise and misunderstandings escalate. When attitudes fly and guns are around only bad things can happen. BTW I'm not anit-gun, I am anti-attitude.

amytom · 29-09-2008, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Engineer

Well, all I can say is that I am not afraid of any drama.

This is the USA and last I heard, we did not condone our men and women in uniform acting like some stereotyped Carribean Officials.

This story hold less water than some holding tanks I've seen.

From experience I can tell you that the "stereotyped Carribean Officials" is much more likely to go easy and cut you slack than an over stressed US official.

Chief Engineer · 29-09-2008, 21:25

I was referring to the "stereotype" that one reads about in sailing books that needs a bribe for allowing you in....... allowing you to leave etc etc.

Akbpilot · 01-10-2008, 21:12

We get boarded once a year, usually during the salmon derby, and usually right outside the harbor. They are young, armed, professional, and courteous. They run a RIB with a light machine gun mounted on the bow. They come alongside, ask us if we've been boarded this year, deploy fenders, drop two on board, then stand off the port side.
The conversation usually goes like this:
Boarding Officer: " Good Afternoon, before we get started I have to ask you, Do you have any weapons on board?
Us: Yes we do.
BO: Without moving toward the weapons, can you tell me what kind and where they are located?
Us: Sure, there's a shotgun under the seat you're standing next to, a rifle in a duffel down in the v-berth, and a handgun in that small bag at the helm.
BO: Are any of the weapons loaded?
Us: Yes, they all are.
BO: (sigh) Of course they are.
The rest of the inspection goes well, and they give us a copy and tell us if we are stopped again to show it to the BO and generally we won't be boarded again.
Never had any problems, and never had any attitudes on either side.

Pelagic · 02-10-2008, 03:52

when we went back below we found the place a wreck with several things missing such as a new $4,000.00 portable GPS unit, $250.00 from each of our wallets that were laying in the drawer of the nav. station, over $600.00 worth of scuba gear (regs., gauges, octos., and 2 $99.00 titanium dive knives),

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Otter

question im not trying to start an argument as i said i don't like drama but do you nohow many huge pockets are on those uniforms .....!

Is that a titanium dive knife in your pocket......or are you just glad to see me?......what a crock!