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**Dockhead** · 29-01-2011, 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodesman

No, no, no! It is not a give-way vessel in any of these instances - it is required to not impede - big difference.

And what would that difference be, exactly?

Tempest245 · 29-01-2011, 06:44

This is an " Overtaking" situation imo. The power boat is the give way vessel.

Rule 13 states: "When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly."

And Further: Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crosssing vessel within the meaning of these rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel UNTIL she is FINALLY past and clear.

I don't agree that this is a " Narrow Channel" . As stated in Rule 9. e (ii) Rule 9 does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under rule 13.

The power boat could simply reduce speed or stop and hold station.

It is irrelevant imo, why the sailboat was sailing in a channel or if it should be there.
The fact is that it's there, and the powerboat was over-taking.

SaucySailoress · 29-01-2011, 06:54

Found a site that does a clinic on this - take a look, the 'Basic Rules of Right of Way Clinic' is FREE!!! (today at least).

Learn to sail online with sailing classes and lessons

I've not tried it yet - but hey, it's for free. The other courses cost money, but this promo code (which I'm free to share with my friends - that's you) gets 10% off for 30 days: intro9273

Like I say, I've only just came across them so this is not a recommendation; I'm just sharing what I found.

**David M** · 29-01-2011, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappySeagull

Good advice.But not applicable here.
I absolutely agree with your sentiments and might say Rules come in the breach of common sense except they are Common Sense.Or as close as many wise men can together write down .
As an example-not a slight-You might have made a suggestive assumption on the vessel "playing a game".Of course,likely so,but unfortunately you can't know that just seeing em ahead of you from the wheelhouse..They may be asleep(bad lookout) short-sighted or having a stroke.Despite appearances it might be a "commercial vessel" as rugged and hoary as any.It might even be the doctor who is out relaxing before he operates on your father tomorrow....They may even be totally and irrevocably at fault and in imminent danger of dying by their folly.But as you know,there's no excuse to run em down That's the "Rules".There's the stress.

That's what pros get paid for.The constant aggravation of bad pilotage.

We had an incident here with a BC ferry ran over a MV while they were blundering hopelessly in front of it.Ferry thought,"it's a game-wake-up Jerks! and tooted Get outta-my-way".Wrong move.Death followed.MV had the right of it too.Lots of searoom and No excuse for ferry to stand on.Even if you argued possible scalds in the galley.Ferry Corp paid.Ok,rich and dead's no good but where's that Ferry Captain now?How's his sleep?and I wonder what he'd do next time?

My discussion was that of some peoples attitudes outside of the discussion of the intricacies of the Rules. The point is, having a healthy attitude can help to avoid needing to have to apply the Rules.

With this incident, had the sailboat skipper tacked early, there would not be a situation nor a discussion. The two boats would have passed at a far enough distance to not worry about what the Rules say. See what I am saying?

SaucySailoress · 29-01-2011, 07:20

Quote:

From that clinic I just mentioned:

Sailboats must Give Way to: ......... Constrained by Draft: This refers to vessels that are in channels, rivers etc and causing them to maneuver out of your way would possibly cause them to run aground. Durh of course!

This has come up again and again! The sailing boat under sail was clearly able to sail to either side of the channel, and the sailing boat under motor was not.

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

My discussion was that of some peoples attitudes outside of the Rules.

and I absolutely agree with you...but here's this hapless MV meeting a sailboat...there's NO avoiding "decision" .
Original Poster,MV, confesses ignorance and asks "What should I have done?" and good on him.I'm guessing it was news to him that The sailboat tried to let the MV past...

It's impossible to avoid everybody.Sailboats are slow and they zigzag.Per any channel,they are not in a stream as MV's are.They can be crossing traffic all day and night (eg:in the hundreds of miles of channels where I am).They encounter MORE traffic than MV's do.Dyou see?not so relaxing.

**David M** · 29-01-2011, 07:34

So much of this discussion is based on the assumption that one is guilty and the other innocent. This is not how it works in a collision between two vessels. Both parties can be found guilty with different weightings.

There is also not enough information to make any sort of a clear judgement. This includes the draft of the vessels and the depth of the water. Also, was this Inland or International? The term constrained by her draft does not apply Inland.

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saucy Sailoress

This has come up again and again! The sailing boat under sail was clearly able to sail to either side of the channel, and the sailing boat under motor was not.

There's nowhere a sailboat with a keel can go that a motorboat can't go.In fact lengths being equal,a 20 foot MV has less draft.
A 22 ft SV could have a 3'8" draft.A 40 foot bilge keeler might have the same or not.

So are you suggesting every boat wear cards that say their draft and act accordingly?There will be some mighty accidents when it gets to inches.Oh,and I've got fuel aboard.I'll have to add 3 inches to my draft....

They're both BOATS.not ships.20 VS 40 feet is a judgement call that is not included in the Rules.

Tbrad · 29-01-2011, 07:54

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Now we can readily see whence lawyers are born!

Tempest245 · 29-01-2011, 08:00

There was no indication in the OP that the power boat was constrained by draft.
Which only applies to international waters anyway.

further, there was not indication in the OP that this was a narrow channel, rather it was stated that it was a wide fairway.

It seems pretty clear to me that this was an overtaking situation, and the powerboat is the give-way vessel. That said, even if it were not, it's a sailboat and a power boat. Power boats give way to sailboats.

There's no presumption that the power boat has the Right to pass. If we're going to follow the Rules; If there was a question the power boat should have sounded a passing signal and waiting for a response. There seemed to be a question, since the power boat felt the need to speed up in order to pass safely astern.

You cannot, in an overtaking situation, then create a situation where you suddenly become the stand on vessel. You have to pass in a manner which passes free and clear of the other vessel.

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bewitched

Post 57 and the back 6" is a red herring - It's posted by Capt Bill, not posted by the OP.

Take a look at the picture below. 3 situations.

Who is stand on vessel?

I'd say in the first one, we don't know because we don't know who is overtaking who,

on the second one, the sailboat is stand on as it is being overtaken

the third one, the power boat is stand on as it is being overtaken.

The relative speed of the vessels determines who is stand on and who is not, because it determines who is being overtaken

talk about Red herrings!
You can't be up- channel,see a ANY boat down-channel and ever consider yourself "The Overtaken One".

These sketches are long PAST the moment the giveway vessel should alter.Couldn't happen in a channel Unless they'd both just popped out of two DIFFERENT mountainous inlets but that's a different topic.

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

So much of this discussion is based on the assumption that one is guilty and the other innocent. This is not how it works in a collision between two vessels. Both parties can be found guilty with different weightings.

There is also not enough information to make any sort of a clear judgement. This includes the draft of the vessels and the depth of the water. Also, was this Inland or International? The term constrained by her draft does not apply Inland.

But that's an INQUEST, not a SUIT.

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempest245

There was no indication in the OP that the power boat was constrained by draft.
Which only applies to international waters anyway.

further, there was not indication in the OP that this was a narrow channel, rather it was stated that it was a wide fairway.

It seems pretty clear to me that this was an overtaking situation, and the powerboat is the give-way vessel. That said, even if it were not, it's a sailboat and a power boat. Power boats give way to sailboats.

There's no presumption that the power boat has the Right to pass. If we're going to follow the Rules; If there was a question the power boat should have sounded a passing signal and waiting for a response. There seemed to be a question, since the power boat felt the need to speed up in order to pass safely astern.

You cannot, in an overtaking situation, then create a situation where you suddenly become the stand on vessel. You have to pass in a manner which passes free and clear of the other vessel.

Exactly.Finally.Including the presumption to pass.
Now,how exactly does the MV get easily by given the very simple scenario presented?A "fairly wide channel",SV seen ahead tacking and also "Down-Bound" and do so WITHOUT expecting the sailboat to avoid him?

HappySeagull · 29-01-2011, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappySeagull

talk about Red herrings!
You can't be up- channel,see a ANY boat down-channel and ever consider yourself "The Overtaken One".

These sketches are long PAST the moment the giveway vessel should alter.Couldn't happen in a channel Unless they'd both just popped out of two DIFFERENT mountainous inlets but that's a different topic.

Sorry to correct:in case there's nitpicking my meaning both vessels proceeding downchannel,per your sketch