Rules of the road on the Chesepeake Bay

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hi Pete:

I appreciate how you're reading this, but Auspicious is actually right. This is what Cockcroft says:

"This is an enlarged version of the definition given in Rule 1 of the
1960 Rules. The important phrase ‘which restrict manaeuvrability’
has been added to make it clear that small vessels such as pleasure
craft fishing with a few short lines or other small gear which does not
appreciably affect their ability to manaeuvre are not entitled to the
degree of privilege allocated to vessels engaged in fishing by Rule 18
and must not show the lights and shapes prescribed in Rule 26."

And don't forget that the status doesn't exist without the signals.

Okay, thanks for the clarification on pleasure fishing vessels. However, I was thinking the many small fishing vessels we have in the UK and presumably there are the equivalent size inshore fishing vessels in North America.

The EU fishing rules have created a licence class of vessel which is less than 10 meters in length, so we have lots of vessels like this: It is a commercial vessel with licences to fish.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Okay, thanks for the clarification on pleasure fishing vessels. However, I was thinking the many small fishing vessels we have in the UK and presumably there are the equivalent size inshore fishing vessels in North America.

The EU fishing rules have created a licence class of vessel which is less than 10 meters in length, so we have lots of vessels like this: It is a commercial vessel with licences to fish.

The commentary says "such as", so it's not only pleasure vessels. I'm in an airport without my books, but when I'm back with them, I'll post the specific types of gear which fall under the rule.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

As I said above Pete, Read the Rules, from which I extracted the relevant bits.

Ok, just read Rule 1 and in the context I agree with you. Actually I should have queried the earlier paragraph D:


(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with
nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability,
but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing
apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability

So does this apply to a small commercial fishing vessel even temporarily when lifting pots for example and once lifted and then no longer apply as the vessel becomes a motor vessel until next time?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The EU fishing rules have created a licence class of vessel which is less than 10 meters in length, so we have lots of vessels like this: It is a commercial vessel with licences to fish.

Agreed, but we are talking about international rules with the force of law. The law doesn't always make sense to those who aren't lawyers. *grin*

Just because tax authorities or national organizations license a boat to "fish" doesn't mean it qualifies as a "fishing vessel" under the COLREGS and certainly not as RAM.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

So does this apply to a small commercial fishing vessel even temporarily when lifting pots for example and once lifted and then no longer apply as the vessel becomes a motor vessel until next time?

Maybe. There are lots of ships that change status. A fishing boat with and without trawls for example, or a dredge that is or is not hooked up to pipes.

What is not clear to me is whether a small boat engaged in hauling pots ever qualifies as RAM. I believe the courts in the US have ruled they do not.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Agreed, but we are talking about international rules with the force of law. The law doesn't always make sense to those who aren't lawyers. *grin* .

Thread drift, I once spent an evening on a broken down train without lights talking to a UK Barrister (and survived).

I did ask him how a civilised country expects its citizens to follow laws if they don't teach them even at high school level?

Auspicious, are you one of them?

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Maybe. There are lots of ships that change status. A fishing boat with and without trawls for example, or a dredge that is or is not hooked up to pipes.

Indeed, press the engine starter and move the gear shift on a yacht and the status changes immediately.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Auspicious, are you one of them?

No. *grin* I have just had to deal with too many in my long and storied career, in both your country and mine.

[Jim Cate]

Query (from one who has never sailed the Chessie):

Do these "watermen" show the appropriate day shapes for "engaged in fishing"? If not, how can they expect to enjoy that status? If so, do they (as all too many fishing vessels do) leave those day shapes up 24/7, not matter what activities they are in? One of my pet peeves with fishing and dive boats...

Jim

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Do these "watermen" show the appropriate day shapes for "engaged in fishing"? If not, how can they expect to enjoy that status?

No, and because many don't know any better.

[Pete7]

Jim, how many yachts do you see flying a motoring cone? in the UK it means someone is taking a sailing exam.

Pete

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Pete7

so we have lots of vessels like this: It is a commercial vessel with licences to fish.

Notice he's got the "2 cones apices together". Doesn't seem too hampered as he's flying along...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Jim, how many yachts do you see flying a motoring cone? in the UK it means someone is taking a sailing exam.

Pete

Ahh, you know the answer to that, Pete!

But in my amateur opinion there is a difference between those examples. In the case of the motorsailing shape, when displaying it one is relinquishing the sailing status and assuming the responsibilities of a MV. In the other, you are claiming the protection of "engaged in fishing" when not so doing.

There is likely no legal differentiation between these transgressions, but to my non-legal mind there is a "moral" difference.

And to really answer your question, in over 40 years of sailing, I have NEVER yet seen the cone displayed (except in chandleries, and damn seldom there). My venues have included Californian waters, down through Mexico and on across the Pacific to Australia. Not a cone to be seen! I understand that in some European countries the rule is enforced, but I've never sailed there.

We do, however, routinely display an anchor ball. VERY few folks know what it means, and a few have questioned our practice. When we were T-boned at anchor a couple of years ago, I was pretty glad it was up... but the question never arose in the ensuing discussions.

We live and sail in an imperfect world, and proper use of day shapes by yachts is one of the imperfections!

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Notice he's got the "2 cones apices together". Doesn't seem too hampered as he's flying along...

Why, fancy that!

Jim

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Notice he's got the "2 cones apices together". Doesn't seem too hampered as he's flying along...

You might wonder who is steering the boat if the fisherman is sorting his pots

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pete7

You might wonder who is steering the boat if the fisherman is sorting his pots

Yep, a good question! Unfortunately, not so uncommon to see fishing boats with no one at the helm or looking forward. Or worse... we were East bound along the South coast of Tasmania in pretty stiff weather, broad reaching at 9-10 knots with a SW wind of ~50 knots. A big cray boat slowly came right up our wake, only making a knot or two more than us. When he was perhaps 50 meters behind, I could see that there was no one in the wheel house, so I got the hell out of his way. As he went on by, I could see no one on the after deck either... no one anywhere in sight. Those guys live scary lives, cray fishing in the Southern ocean. I guess the slight risk of their auto pilots, following a known route running over some other vessel seems pretty tame to them. Bothered me, though!

Jim