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Old 07-11-2010, 10:04   #1
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Requirements for Storage of Gasoline on a Non-Gasoline-Powered Vessel

In researching the applicable Florida law regarding enthusiastic enforcement of the Flroida MSD secuirty law I came across another Florida law that I was unaware of that causes me some concern.

327.66
Carriage of gasoline on vessels.

(1)(a) A person shall not:
1. Possess or operate any vessel that has been equipped with tanks, bladders, drums, or other containers designed or intended to hold gasoline, or install or maintain such containers in a vessel, if such containers do not conform to federal regulations or have not been approved by the United States Coast Guard by inspection or special permit.

2. Transport any gasoline in an approved portable container when the container is in a compartment that is not ventilated in strict compliance with United States Coast Guard regulations pertaining to ventilation of compartments containing gasoline tanks.


(b) A person who violates paragraph (a) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

The part that has me concerned is section 1a part 2. The only coast guard regulations I can find are applicable only to vessels that carry gasoline for propulsion or power generation. I carry gasoline for my dighyin a compartment on my deck that vents overboard but does not have any connection to the interior of my boat. It does not however meet the requirements for a closed compartment on a gasoline powered boat as the vent is to small. There is no source of ignition in the compartment and I am not worried about safety, only about compliance with the law. Is anyone aware of any regulations regarding the storage of gasoline on a non gasoline powerd boat? I haven't been able to find any, but maybe someone else is aware of one. The reason I am so concerned is that the penalty for violation of this law is not a simple fine, it is forfeiture of your boat! In Paragraph b below you don't even have to be convicted in court for them to take your boat.

(3) All conveyances, vessels, vehicles, and other equipment described in paragraph (1)(a) or used in the commission of a violation of paragraph (1)(a), other than gasoline or containers removed as provided in subsection (2), are declared to be contraband.
(a) Upon conviction of a person arrested for a violation of paragraph (1)(a), the judge shall issue an order adjudging and ordering that all conveyances, vessels, vehicles, and other equipment used in the violation shall be forfeited to the arresting agency. The requirement for a conviction before forfeiture of property establishes to the exclusion of any reasonable doubt that the property was used in connection with the violation resulting in the conviction, and the procedures of chapter 932 do not apply to any forfeiture of property under this subsection following a conviction.

(b) In the absence of an arrest or conviction, any such conveyance, vessel, vehicle, or other equipment used in violation of paragraph (1)(a) shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture as provided by the Florida Contraband Forfeiture Act.

(c) As used in this subsection, the term “conviction” means a finding of guilt or the acceptance of a plea of guilty or nolo contendere, regardless of whether adjudication is withheld or whether imposition of sentence is withheld, deferred, or suspended.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:12   #2
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dink included

So... if the dink has an outboard and I store the fuel like you describe, is the tender considered "Part of the Vessel" in regards to this statue?
...and not in violation? I have a generator as well but need to fill it from time to time since it doesn't have a built in tank to supply it so WTF, another gov't intervention to save us from ourselves and if we can't conform then they'll take our property from us to protect us from ALL the things that intend us harm. When will someone take "THEM" away to protect us from 'them'? This needs to be challenged, and quickly.
I can't understand what this law could be "pretecting us from" to be honest.

The only good thing is that after they take all your stuff (seize without due process of law...) they give you the gas can... LoL
Another reason to sail right on by Florida and not come back...
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:33   #3
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What you could do is modify the compartment so it complies with their writings (larger vent) and get a volunteer inspection, w/o the gas can, of course. And if it passes get a signed/stamped receipt stating it passed inspection. Otherwise ask them what it would take for it to comply.

If you ever get boarded you can show the document stating it's legal. It seems different officers have there own opinion on the statutes.

I see nothing about carrying containers up on deck. Twice I've salvage gas containers floating here out in the Sound.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:35   #4
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The red gasoline storage plastic/metal containers are sold in US boat stores for storing gasoline on deck and are legal, or they would not sell them. The liability lawsuits would be horrific. But if you put the plastic/metal containers inside a closed compartment then you have to comply with the regulations about closed compartments. And I believe the vent talks to the storage tank/container vent and it has to be vented to the outside. And I cannot see how you can do that as the plastic/metal storage containers have no provisions for such things.
- - What is wrong with on-deck storage? You can have wooden/plastic/steel rails to strap the cans to restrain them from moving. Also friends showed my how to sew up covers for the cans made out of the automobile glareshield aluminized sun reflector panels sold in auto stores. They are used to reflect sun off the top of the dashboard under the front windshield. Others make covers from sunbrella or vinyl to keep the sun's UV from attacking the plastic.
- - Those plastic/metal containers will eventually leak fuel from cracks in the plastic or rusted out seams in the metal. Wherever you store them you need to plan for gasoline spillage/leakage. On the deck it is easy as the gasoline with evaporate or at worst drain to the sea water around the boat.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:44   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdennyb View Post
I can't understand what this law could be "pretecting us from" to be honest.
The integral tank on the boat is vented overboard, so as temperature changes cause changes in pressure inside the tank, gas/diesel fumes vent overboard. Portable tanks have no such venting, so if they were stored inside the cabin, inflammable gasoline fumes would be vented into the cabin as the temperature increased. Then someone would light the stove.

The law is meant to protect the 10% of the population stupid enough to do this... from themsleves.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:05   #6
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First of all let me appologize for my typing, I'm on the netbook keyboard today and having a bit of a hard time. Let me again describe the situation. The gas tank in question is an approved portable tank outboard tank for my 15 hp yamaha. I keep it in a molded in insulated deck locker that has a vent directly overboard from the bottom of the locker. It is not connected in any way to the interior of the boat. It has no electrical or metal pieces of amy kind protruding into it. The equivalent locker on the other side of the boat is used for the propane locker. The only difference is that the propane locker has an insert in it that keeps the propane tank from rattling around. The vents at the bottom are exactly the same. I keep the tank and fuel line in there because I have had two stolen off of my deck, well technically one out of the dinghy but let's not be picky. There is no practical way to increase the vent size. There is no way this thing is an explosion hazard short of someone spilling gas in it and lighting it on puropse, but even a fully vented compartment would be compromised under those conditions.

When I looked at the USCG regulations on ventilation it said it only applied to vessels using gasoline for propulsion or power generation. Since my dinghy is a completely separate vessel gasoline rules apply to it separately would be my understanding. It might not apply if I did not have a completely separate state registration for my dink, but since I have more than 10 hp and fish and dive out of my dink I need to have it.

My Question is ...... Is any one aware of any USCG regulation regarding the storage of Gasoline in addition to the ones applicable to vessels using gasoline for propulsion or power generation?
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:10   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
........ Portable tanks have no such venting, so if they were stored inside the cabin, inflammable gasoline fumes would be vented into the cabin as the temperature increased. ........
Just how does the gasoline fumes escape from the portable tanks given they have no vents?
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:19   #8
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GRATINGS AND DECORATIVE COVERS ON VENTILATION SYSTEM OPENINGS

Quote:
Unless the compartment is open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system consisting of supply and exhaust openings is required in each compartment in a boat that:--------

(4) contains a fuel tank that vents into that compartment; or
(5) contains a nonmetallic fuel tank with a permeability rate in excess of standards.
The cross-sectional area of the supply and exhaust openings in the natural ventilation system is based upon the net compartment volume.
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pd...ls/BSC85_1.pdf

If you put in a blower system it would be up to specs.

Hope this helps!
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:24   #9
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Quote:
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Just how does the gasoline fumes escape from the portable tanks given they have no vents?
They don't until the tank bursts or splits a seam or you leave the little vent cap a little loose. You will notice that gasoline storage containers stored on deck get rather fat during the day and shrink during the night.
Which is one reason that they are not stored in any kind of enclosed area on or in the boat.
- - I believe firmly that once you build a box with all sides enclosed (the lid is one side) then you are putting the tanks in an enclosed area of the boat and must comply with the venting requirements for the tank and the box. Gasoline vapors trapped inside the box or spilt gasoline inside the box converts the box into a Molotov cocktail type container, although not maybe throwable.
- - As far as the regulations protecting you from yourself they also protect the rest of us from the flaming debris falling from the sky after the explosion.
- - I would suggest that trying to nitpick the regulations can get you into a world of legal and moral trouble especially if the boat is insured or your flaming debris lands on anybody or their property. On-deck open storage is not a problem and the "covers/cozies" can be used if you don't like the looks of red containers on deck.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:43   #10
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Gasoline has the dangerous combination of a low flash point, combined with a high vapour density.

The flash point of a liquid is defined as the temperature above which the liquid produces vapours which can ignite or explode. The flash point of gasoline is - 45 degrees F ( - 43 degrees C). In practical terms, this means that at all temperatures above minus 45 degrees, liquid gasoline is producing vapour which can ignite or explode.
By comparison, the flash point of kerosene is 100 degrees F and the flash point of diesel fuel is 125 degrees F.

The vapour density is defined as the ratio of density of the vapour of a substance to the density of air. Air has a density of one. Substances with a vapour density of less than one are lighter than air, and tend to dissipate easily. Substances with a vapour density greater than one are heavier than air and tend to accumulate in low places.

Gasoline has a vapour density of 3 to 4. At normal temperatures, liquid gasoline is producing vapours that can catch fire, and which accumulate in low places. These vapours can travel considerable distances from the spill point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
... The law is meant to protect the 10% of the population stupid enough to do this... from themsleves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
... As far as the regulations protecting you from yourself they also protect the rest of us from the flaming debris falling from the sky after the explosion ...
Laws, such as these, may also protect us from manufacturers (or DIY previous owners) who don’t understand, or care about, the practical safety considerations.
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Old 07-11-2010, 13:07   #11
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Sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
........ Portable tanks have no such venting, so if they were stored inside the cabin, inflammable gasoline fumes would be vented into the cabin as the temperature increased. ..........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Just how does the gasoline fumes escape from the portable tanks given they have no vents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
They don't until the tank bursts or splits a seam or you leave the little vent cap a little loose. You will notice that gasoline storage containers stored on deck get rather fat during the day and shrink during the night.
Which is one reason that they are not stored in any kind of enclosed area on or in the boat.
....................
Hmm.... my dry wit was either too dry or not or witty enough; I suspect the latter.

I concur with the OP that he does not have any safety issues, only a possible compliance issue in an allegedly over-regulated marine environment of Florida.

I am sorry that I can't help with the original question.

As to laws to protect us, some are essential, most are useful but once we try to protect the really stupid by laws (as opposed to education and advice), it becomes impossible to first write a meaningful law and then to police it without infringing on the normal values of the vast majority of the not so stupid population.

It seems to me after reading internationally based forums that some countries have more experience with this concept and this helps me choose my travel destinations
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Old 07-11-2010, 13:16   #12
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As to laws to protect us, some are essential, most are useful but once we try to protect the really stupid by laws (as opposed to education and advice), it becomes impossible to first write a meaningful law and then to police it without infringing on the normal values of the vast majority of the not so stupid population.
Couldn't agree more. A "free" & democratic society should have less laws, not more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
It seems to me after reading internationally based forums that some countries have more experience with this concept and this helps me choose my travel destinations
Interesting. What would be the top five? (we have lots of laws here, just no enforcement).
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Old 07-11-2010, 13:32   #13
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http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pd...ls/BSC85_1.pdf

If you put in a blower system it would be up to specs.

Hope this helps!
Thanks for the information, but the information provided in the circular is taken from section 183.6xx and the part they left out is immediately before the part quoted in the circular.


§ 183.601 Applicability.

top
This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.
[USCG–1999–5832, 64 FR 34716, June 29, 1999]



Gord,

My understanding is that gasoline vapors are heavier than propane vapors and would be more likely to settle to the bottom of the compatment than the propane vapors. Are you implying that heavier gasoline vapors in a compartment vented in the exact same manner as a compartment containing propane vapors are less likely to exit the vent at the bottom of the compartment? I would think the opposite would be true. I will admit there is much more of a chance that I will forget to close the vent on my outboard tank than there is to be a leak in my propane tank, just from the number of times I touch it.


I did a short walk down the dock today just to see how many people stored their actual dinghy gas tank on deck in the open. It was 1 out of 5. Several people had regular gas (jerry) cans lashed to their rails, but only one guy had his actual outboard gas tank stored in the open on deck, but he had a deep cockpit and it was out of sight. Everyone else had it in some sort of deck locker, none of which opened to the interior of the boat or had ignition sources but none of which would have met the ventilation requirements for gas powered boats. Then again all of them were diesel powered sail boats.
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Old 07-11-2010, 18:35   #14
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A little more info...............


Quote:
§ 183.620 Natural ventilation system.
top
(a) Except for compartments open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system that meets the requirements of §183.630 must be provided for each compartment in a boat that:
(1) Contains a permanently installed gasoline engine;
(2) Has openings between it and a compartment that requires ventilation, where the aggregate area of those openings exceeds 2 percent of the area between the compartments, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section;
(3) Contains a permanently installed fuel tank and an electrical component that is not ignition protected in accordance with §183.410(a);
(4) Contains a fuel tank that vents into that compartment; or
(5) Contains a non-metallic fuel tank:

(i) With an aggregate permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours per cubic foot of net compartment volume, or
(ii) If the net compartment volume is less than one cubic foot, having a permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours.
Note: Reference fuel “C” at 40 degrees Celsius plus or minus 2 degrees Celsius from ASTM standard D 471 (incorporated by reference, see §183.5) is to be used in determining the permeability rate.
(b) Each supply opening required in §183.630 must be located on the exterior surface of the boat.
(c) An accommodation compartment above a compartment requiring ventilation that is separated from the compartment requiring ventilation by a deck or other structure is excepted from paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
[CGD 76–082, 44 FR 73027, Dec. 17, 1979, as amended by CGD 76–082(a), 46 FR 27645, May 21, 1981; CGD 85–059, 51 FR 37577, Oct. 23, 1986; USCG–1999–5832, 64 FR 34716, June 29, 1999; USCG–1999–5151, 64 FR 67176, Dec. 1, 1999]
§ 183.630 Standards for natural ventilation.
top
(a) For the purpose of §183.620, “natural ventilation” means an airflow in a compartment in a boat achieved by having:
(1) A supply opening or duct from the atmosphere or from a ventilated compartment or from a compartment that is open to the atmosphere; and
(2) An exhaust opening into another ventilated compartment or an exhaust duct to the atmosphere.
(b) Each exhaust opening or exhaust duct must originate in the lower third of the compartment.
(c) Each supply opening or supply duct and each exhaust opening or exhaust duct in a compartment must be above the normal accumulation of bilge water.
(d) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, supply openings or supply ducts and exhaust openings or exhaust ducts must each have a minimum aggregate internal cross-sectional area calculated as follows:
A=5 ln (V/5);
where:
(1) A is the minimum aggregate internal cross-sectional area of the openings or ducts in square inches;
(2) V is the net compartment volume in cubic feet, including the net volume of other compartments connected by openings that exceed 2 percent of the area between the compartments; and
(3) ln (V/5) is the natural logarithm of the quantity (V/5).
(e) The minimum internal cross-sectional area of each supply opening or duct and exhaust opening or duct must exceed 3.0 square inches.
(f) The minimum internal cross-sectional area of terminal fittings for flexible ventilation ducts installed to meet the requirements of paragraph (d) of this section must not be less than 80 percent of the required internal cross-sectional area of the flexible ventilation duct.
[CGD 76–082, 44 FR 73027, Dec. 17, 1979; 45 FR 7544, Feb. 4, 1980]
Justia :: 33 C.F.R. PART 183—BOATS AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT -- US Laws, Codes, Statutes & Cases -- Justia
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Old 07-11-2010, 19:19   #15
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Delmarray,
If you'll notice 183.620 which you quoted is part of subpart K Ventilation: Further Notice that the first item list in the subpart is applicability which is only to boats having gasoline powered engines or machinery. I am aware of this provision. My boat has no gasoline powered engines or machinery. I'm looking for any obscure regulations that are not part of subpart K of 33 CFR.


Subpart K—Ventilation

top

Source: CGD 76–082, 44 FR 73027, Dec. 17, 1979, unless otherwise noted. § 183.601 Applicability.

top
This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.
[USCG–1999–5832, 64 FR 34716, June 29, 1999]


Thanks for your time and effort.
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