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Old 23-08-2011, 18:04   #61
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Coming from commercial yachting, and also being a solo small yacht sailor when not working, i'd say the most important piece of kit these days is not the nav lights, which you obviously cannot change to suit your own purposes, but active AIS. Anything that can improve your visibility to other vessels, be it electronic or otherwise, without confusing the watch of other vessels ( NUC LIGHTS ON A HOVE TO SAILING YACHT!!!!!!!) is extremely important.

More than once in the past weeks vessels which have offered poor echo's for my radar (Rule 7 para c ) have been visible on my ECDIS display due to the vessels in question having AIS. This allows for fine tuning of the radar at a known specific range for the vessel in question. This then allows us on bridge to judge through eyes and ears, when in visible range, (nav lights for vessels between 12-50metres in length are set at visibility of 2nm, (Rule 22)), so therefore if i can get vessel information at 6 or 12nm then its much better and early decisions can be made on whether the vessel is making way or not, and which heading and what speed. therefore allowing us to proceed with safer knowledge that we are able to make a judgement to avoid collision. AIS is also beneficial the other way around letting us when in the small boats know the heading and speed and even name, mmsi and callsign of vessels in our vicinity.

All said and done DONT SLEEP IN A TSS OR SHIPPING LANE!!!
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Old 23-08-2011, 18:24   #62
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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All said and done DONT SLEEP IN A TSS OR SHIPPING LANE!!!
^^^^^^Best advise yet in this thread^^^^^
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Old 23-08-2011, 18:34   #63
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
So you’d run them down?
That's not the point.

The point is that if I'm out there and I'm truly NUC, I don't want professional mariners, such as our own David M, to assume I'm just another yachtie failing to maintain a proper watch.

Let's face it, cruisers tend to be far too ignorant of the Rules of the Road. How many of us even know light signals, or horn signals or even day shapes?

The prevailing attitude among recreational boaters at this point is the more lights the better. I see a constant parade of boats going down the Sausalito channel at night that are running with steaming lights, anchor lights, running lights and deck lights all at the same time. The bottom line, should you decide to join the turn-em-all-on crowd, is that all you're signaling is your own ignorance.
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Old 23-08-2011, 19:03   #64
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Wow....ever spend much time in the middle of the ocean with large commercial traffic going by???? A small sailboat with red over red is hardly going to hazard anyone....
One would have to assume that if you are willing to change one Colreg to fit your particular circumstance it's probably a safe bet that you're going to apply that thought process to others as well. Perhaps you didn't notice that I did not specify just NUC in the sentence you quoted.
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Old 23-08-2011, 20:01   #65
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

@Bash...
The point is survival! The OP posed a question (well several really) and the gist was what to display when sleeping. We all agree that failure to keep a watch is not a good thing, nor would be NUC. But a boat at anchor, whether actually hooked physically to the bottom, on a sea anchor, or hove to is still "anchored" and should display THAT light.

In the situation posed by the OP, and disregarding all the superfluous conditions, and situations added on by others, I would burn my anchor light. I also believe that legally that is the ONLY light able to be used when NOT maintaining a watch.

Now if you wish to debate whether or not I would intentionally put MYSELF in the situation as suggested by the OP.... We'll need another thread!
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Old 23-08-2011, 20:21   #66
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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One would have to assume that if you are willing to change one Colreg to fit your particular circumstance it's probably a safe bet that you're going to apply that thought process to others as well.
Of course. If you choose to violate the watch standing regs what possible reason would you have to not violate a light reg if the overall result was a safer passage? None whatsoever. The argument is not what is in violation or what a court would say it is simply what provides the safest passage for all concerned.

Is there anyone who would seriously make an argument that showing the NUC lights would not decrease the risk of collision but actually increase it? Unless you can make that argument then showing of some kind of signal that would call attention to your boat if you are not keeping watch just seems to make sense (or at least as much sense as not keeping watch)

Not all violations are the same. The watch keeping reg is so fundamental to the system that once you decide to violate that one any violation of the minor regs that might mitigate the consequences of that decision is a virtue not a vice IMHO.


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Old 23-08-2011, 20:31   #67
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
@Bash...
The point is survival! The OP posed a question (well several really) and the gist was what to display when sleeping. We all agree that failure to keep a watch is not a good thing, nor would be NUC. But a boat at anchor, whether actually hooked physically to the bottom, on a sea anchor, or hove to is still "anchored" and should display THAT light.
Hove to is not anchored. Sea anchor is not anchored. In both situations, technically, you are still under way. This is why I always heave to on starboard tack.

Bottom line: singlehanding long passages is not sanctioned by the Colregs IF a proper watch cannot be maintained. That's not saying in should never happen. I have not taken a position on that in any way.

My position is that you don't hijack signals that suggest something completely other than what you're doing, just to give yourself an opportunity not to keep a proper watch.

Let's at least be honest with our signals. If you're not anchored, don't display the anchor light. And if you're not technically NUC....
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Old 23-08-2011, 20:37   #68
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Well sir, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree! You keep purely to the "rules" and I'll stick to surviving any way I can. As I said before, there's right and dead right, and the rule of gross tonnage will always prevail.
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Old 23-08-2011, 20:58   #69
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Well sir, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree! You keep purely to the "rules" and I'll stick to surviving any way I can. As I said before, there's right and dead right, and the rule of gross tonnage will always prevail.
That's the same argument the fellow makes who wants to turn on every external light on his boat makes when coming home from 4th of July fireworks, his one-and-only night excursion per year. Turn them all on, and to hell with my night vision and everybody else's night vision, I just want to survive.

Sorry, I don't sail just to survive. I want to make passages with style, and grace, and competence. I don't follow the rules blindly, and the fact is there's no rule of gross tonnage in the open ocean. Many, many times I've had ships alter courses because I was under sail and they were under power. So be it.

Sometimes it's important to do the right thing.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:02   #70
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Red over red-the captain is dead.
the rest of the saying is "His Balls are in the rigging"
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:18   #71
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

I am hardly in the turn them all on crowd; I despise them as much as you do. I have way too many days at sea to be foolish enough to be lumped in with the credit card captains. Similarly, I do not parade around the yacht club in topsiders, a captain's hat, and shirts with alligators whilst hoisting signal flags and debating minutiae of the rules.

My background is in working vessels, and as a demographic, I am sure that group is more compliant with signals than any group of pleasure boaters. That said, I will say again that given the circumstance set forth by the OP, an anchor light would be the best light to display.

In rebuttal to your assertion that sea anchored vessels are underway, I submit that even a vessel anchored to the bottom moves somewhat.... It that vessel underway as well? By your inference only a vessel aground would not be underway and could display an anchor light

ETA: Once upon a time, I was pushing two head barges, 110' long, each loaded with 3700 tons of concrete bridge beams. In a crossing situation at a harbor entrance some yachtie tried to invoke the "I'm a sailboat and you need to give way" ( the fact that i was towing, CBD, and RAM seemed to be inconsequential)... Well one of us got to go swimming that day, and it wasn't me! Even if he had been correct in his view of the rules (he wasn't) he still was gonna lose. Even in the open sea, were I in a stand-on situation with a closing CPA and on a small boat, I would still give way to a ship; to do otherwise is arrogant and foolhardy.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:22   #72
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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I am hardly in the turn them all on crowd; I despise them as much as you do. I have way too many days at sea ...
Credit card captains? I hear fists thumping on your chest.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:42   #73
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Waiving perhaps, thumping no... Not my style
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:42   #74
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Of course. If you choose to violate the watch standing regs what possible reason would you have to not violate a light reg if the overall result was a safer passage?
Jim

A safe passage entails a full crew. With a full crew I have standing orders about when you wake me up, when you do horizon scans, etc..

One of my students did a passage with John Neal. One of the crew neglected to tell John about a vessel he had seen; he was put ashore at the next destination. He had endangered the crew.

If you want to be all macho and go single-handed, suffer the consequences. Do not ask us for permission.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:43   #75
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Waiving perhaps, thumping no... Not my style
Intentional or typo.
My students do sign waivers.
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