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Old 27-07-2011, 18:50   #61
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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So you are in favor of a law that says if I am sitting in my cockpit at anchor enjoying a cool drink, listening to music that I need a life jacket on. Do you really believe that?

God help us if anybody with legislative authority does.

No I did not say that.

Do you sit in your car and wear a seat belt? Sit on a motorcycle and wear a helmet? The safety devices are usually used during operation.

While underway, yes I could be behind mandatory PFD use.
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Old 27-07-2011, 18:50   #62
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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Just a point here. You have it backwards. Without the helmet the head doink kills = lower cost. With the helmet the brain is A-OK lots of times and the rest of the spine, limbs etc. are shattered and in need of life long care and attention.
Just a point.
Same point as my "make airbags optional" point. The bad drivers (and presumably sailors) self-extinguish. Good example vs. horrible warning and all.

Darwin is always the skipper in such cases.
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Old 27-07-2011, 18:53   #63
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It is dangerous to walk barefooted. Should shoes be mandatory?
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Old 27-07-2011, 19:03   #64
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

I once read a book about a Swedish couple who set out to winter (err - summer) frozen in the ice of Antarctica in a small sailboat. These folks were hardcore. While they had heat, they kept the cabin temperature below freezing most of the time to keep the humidity under control and stretch the limited supply of fuel.

They also made the decision that they would not use their radio the whole time because they didn't want anyone to risk their lives trying to rescue them if the radio failed and they missed a call.

It struck me as a pretty impressive example of "walking the walk" of personal responsibility for dangerous undertakings.

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Old 27-07-2011, 23:25   #65
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

The New South Wales table makes pretty good sense to me ... it requires people underway on small open craft, people on boats traversing a bar, children on deck or in very small boats, etc., to wear PFDs.
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Old 28-07-2011, 06:08   #66
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

Rgscpat,

I agree that it sounds very reasonable. However, the devil, as they say, is in the details.

For example, for children under 12, the rules specify a type 1, 2, or 3 PFD on enclosed water, but only a Type 1 is permissible on open(ocean) waters. Here in Virginia, we boat a significant amount of time on the Chesapeake Bay, which opens directly onto the Atlantic Ocean. If we were operating by the NSW rules, I would have to ask if that expanse of water was "enclosed", since the Bay is enclosed over much of its perimeter or open, since it has miles of fetch and can be verey intimidating in a storm. If it is "open", then it would seem that every child on it would need to wear a type 1 on any boat ssmaller than 8 meters - which would be most of them out there.

Also, it would seem that the captain would need to keep a large collection of PFDs aboard, since otherewise the type of PFDs would limit the range that that the Captain might take his boat, since he could not transition from an "enclosed" area to an "open" area without shifting from a lower type to a higher type PFD.

Finally, looking at the sailboarding requirement, it sets a 400 meter limit from shore. Within that limit, no PFD is required, outside a PFD is required. However, it would seem to be more reasonable to put on a PFD if the water was 30 meters deep, even if one is only 100 meters from shore, while if the water is 1.5 meters deep a kilometer from the shore (a common occurence in tidal estuaries), there is little need for a PFD for an average adult.

Now, one could argue that it just makes "good sense" to put on a swimming aid if one is on a sailboard, no matter how far from the shore, and I would agree with that completely. But this is not a case of using "good sense." This is a case of legislating actions - and using that to replace "good sense."

Replacing "good sense" with legislation appears to me to be bad government.
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Old 28-07-2011, 06:43   #67
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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No I did not say that.

Do you sit in your car and wear a seat belt? Sit on a motorcycle and wear a helmet? The safety devices are usually used during operation.

While underway, yes I could be behind mandatory PFD use.
In all states that I am aware of, if you are in the car in on public property a seatbelt is required. The car is considered to be "in operation" if you have access to the keys. Not often enforced, but that is how it is on the books. It is enforced in that way with drunks.

A boat at anchor is "in operation." This is well established.

However, the OP was about 18-foot boats and human powered boats. Sure, they tip while anchored fishing. Which doesn't mean I agree with the proposal.
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Old 28-07-2011, 06:44   #68
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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It is dangerous to walk barefooted. Should shoes be mandatory?
Depends on the feet.
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Old 28-07-2011, 07:17   #69
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

If it is mandated then it will be enforced. it will also be altered by orders in council with no inpute from anyone except beauracrats.Eventually you will have to wear one on a cruise ship. I read the article about the lakes in Mississipi. The only thing I see happening from that is a lot of people not learning how to swim! A lot of these dumb laws get enacted because someone wants the votes and mother issues such as this are a good way to get them. We all like to tell everyone else how to live and what is best for them but don't like it when we are told! All this safety equiptment is good most of the time. But and there is always a but sometimes it in itself can be dangerous. It amazes me sometimes that in the land of the free how quick some are to give up that freedom so easily. My 2 cents worth.
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Old 28-07-2011, 13:00   #70
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

Indeed the devil does live in the details. However, in the example given a few posts back, I would submit that a boardsailor could very easily drown in 1.5-meter-deep water in a tidal estuary, whether 100 meters or 1 km from shore.

Admittedly, having to switch between different PFD types in the course of a voyage is a real hassle and rather impractical, and getting children to put on a Type I when on deck or in a small boat would be very hard. Although the Type IIIs do little or nothing to keep the head out of the water, many of them are very comfortable and come in designs that are attractive to children. And, I would like to see dinghy sailors have choice of what sort of PFD they deem appropriate for their conditions, whether it be an inflatable, a 50-n buoyancy aid, a high-impact-resistant vest, or one of the ocean types.

But, the more bad judgment, stupidity, and resulting carnage we see from boneheads on the water, the more legislation we are guaranteed to receive. What can we say, when in the USA (Virginia), we get ten rocket scientists trying to kill themselves on a 22-foot (<7m) Venture MacGregor -- and a couple of them succeeding!? Or the US Coast Guard talking on the cell phone while running down a boat at a nighttime celebration? Or a charity founder overloading an unstable boat while taking developmentally disabled people "sailing".

Ideally, I'd like to see one huge amount of education happening before we resort to more draconian legislation -- but sometimes I fear the education will have to be legislated -- and now we're ready to re-open THAT can of worms thread!
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Old 28-07-2011, 13:09   #71
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
In all states that I am aware of, if you are in the car in on public property a seatbelt is required. The car is considered to be "in operation" if you have access to the keys. Not often enforced, but that is how it is on the books. It is enforced in that way with drunks.

A boat at anchor is "in operation." This is well established.

However, the OP was about 18-foot boats and human powered boats. Sure, they tip while anchored fishing. Which doesn't mean I agree with the proposal.
Show me one example of a boat in anchor aS A BOAT IN OPERATION....A CAPTAIN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER ACTIONS WHILE AT ANCHOR...BUT "IN OPERATION" i WOULD BEG THE OPPOSITE.....
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Old 28-07-2011, 13:34   #72
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

At least in our state, boats differ from land motor vehicles in that the law makes a distinction between moored (anchored or slipped in a marina or at a fuel or other dock) boats and those boats that are under way, whether under motor, sail, or human power or drifting.
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Old 28-07-2011, 13:38   #73
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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At least in our state, boats differ from land motor vehicles in that the law makes a distinction between moored (anchored or slipped in a marina or at a fuel or other dock) boats and those boats that are under way, whether under motor, sail, or human power or drifting.
And most states do...for a lot of regulations...however be careful...the USCG still will find a captain negligent if his/her action are outside the norm whether at anchor or not.
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Old 28-07-2011, 15:09   #74
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Re: Mandating Adult Life Jacket Wear

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And most states do...for a lot of regulations...however be careful...the USCG still will find a captain negligent if his/her action are outside the norm whether at anchor or not.
.... and in most coastal areas it is the Coast Guard that takes the lead. It is normal in Maryland, for example, for boats at anchor to be checked for PFD usage. I seem to get checked about every 5 years (so far no troubles). Each time I was in a tender with children, and they said they were focused on boats with children and on PWC.
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Old 28-07-2011, 16:25   #75
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Open Waters...

From the NSW Maritime website:-
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the definition in the legislation (Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009) for "enclosed waters" is "enclosed waters means navigable waters within the land mass of New South Wales such as inland and coastal rivers, inland and coastal lakes and similar waters, and enclosed coastal bays and harbours and includes waters specified in Schedules 1 and 2 to the Marine Safety (Commercial Vessels) Regulation 2010" *....and "open waters" is "open waters means navigable waters that are not enclosed waters"...ie ocean waters
The "original" can be found here:-Lifejacket Reforms - Frequently Asked Questions

The concept of "open water" and "enclosed water" is key to other areas of marine regulation as well. If you have a look at the Clyde Estuary Safe Boating Plan and scroll about half way down to the map you'll get some idea of what "open water" looks like in NSW. The plan gives some idea of how the bureaucrats like to manage this concept.
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