LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

Did you ever get your Lopolight issues worked out?

They sent me replacements, and I sold the boat. So it's "worked out" as far as I am concerned

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

two points:

(1) A particular fixture is certified with a specific bulb (usually branded by the fixture mgf like aqua signa) If you use ANY other bulb (like a west marine store brand),even an identical looking incandescent that might (or might not) have come off the same chinese production line, then in theory you don't know if you are in compliance or not. It might not have exactly the same intensity or color or location.

(2) When we all discussed this exact same question a number of years ago, I took a soft white LED bulb and an aqua signal standard bulb and a fixture to the naval academy and had some cadets test them. The LED bulb was significantly brighter than the incandescent. The LED colors where well within the specified color spectrums. There was a hair more 'bleed over' between the color sectors but not enough that it could cause any significant real world misinterpretation. I personally was quite satisfied with its light performance. Unfortunately it also produced RF noise, so I later stopped using it and switched to a different fixture/led combo that did not produce RF noise

I suggest you try again. The RF noise is not an issue with high frequency PWM. I have these in all fixtures and have problems only with my 800 lumen deck lighting and only where the fixture is close to the VHF antenna.

I controlled the bleed-over by adding dividers in the Aquasignal tower. The bulb is Marine Beam with red, green, white LED emitters potted in a machined aluminum case. The proper color emitters yield a brighter output in each sector.

[George DuBose]

I have LEDs in every fixture on Skylark, except the steaming light. None of them get hot. Maybe a little warm when they have been on for hours.

I replaced the tungsten festoon bulbs in all my Perko fixtures with LED festoons, the tungsten bulbs were melting the plastic lenses.

While the Perkos are not even legal in the EU, I don't count on other boats seeing me. I count on the watchstander seeing the other boats.

Radar, AIS...MK1 eyeball and a sharp lookout are the most reliable.

[wiekeith]

Originally Posted by Fearless Friend

Haven't bought one yet but intend to. Might be of interest, and might not.

w.boatlamps.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d175.html

I note the very honest footnote they've added:

In common with other replacement LED lamps on the market, it is not possible to have any sort of marine authority certification for individual replacement bulbs. These LED lamps are easily visible at distances exceeding 3nm in standard fixtures and are the brightest replacement LED bulbs available. Given the vast array of navigation light fittings installed on marine vessels,it is the user's decision alone whether to use this product to retrofit any particular light fitting used for navigation purposes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by George DuBose

I have LEDs in every fixture on Skylark, except the steaming light. None of them get hot. Maybe a little warm when they have been on for hours.

I replaced the tungsten festoon bulbs in all my Perko fixtures with LED festoons, the tungsten bulbs were melting the plastic lenses.

While the Perkos are not even legal in the EU, I don't count on other boats seeing me. I count on the watchstander seeing the other boats.

Radar, AIS...MK1 eyeball and a sharp lookout are the most reliable.

If you don't count on other boats seeing you, and if this means it doesn't matter how well your nav lights function, then why do you even turn the nav lights on?

What would you think if the owners of other vessels took the same approach?
Two vessels run on such principles meeting on a dark night sounds like a recipe for trouble to me.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

I have these in all fixtures and have problems . . . . . . only where the fixture is close to the VHF antenna.

The bulb is Marine Beam with red, green, white LED emitters . . . . .

Yea, the RF was only a problem for my tricolor, right next to my VHF antenna. And yes, the Marine Beam 3 color bulbs do produce RF - I did test them. They were the last drop-in bulb I tried.

I eventually switched to this for the tricolor: LED Navigation Lights by Optolamp Boating Gear fit for the King. Used by vendee globe boats. Extremely well made and zero RF noise.

For my bow lights I dislike the Aqua signal fixtures as they get water intrusion and corrode inside (during heavy blue water use), and had to be replaced about every 3 years (the stern light did not have this problem). So led bulbs in them does not solve that problem. I switched to sealed led fixtures there. (Lopo's, which originally had a design failure and died - were replaced for free and seem like perhaps they fixed the design, but I sold the boat before doing another long passage).

Edit: quite honestly looking at my long list of product failures here, using some of the top brands . . . It really is an amazingly crap industry for a required and certified "safety" product.

[rendern]

I read through this thread and something that should be mentioned regarding replacing incandescent bulbs with LEDs behind colored lenses seems to be missing. I read that when replacing incandescents with LEDs for use behind a colored lens, it is important to use the "warm white" LEDs instead of the "cool white" LEDs, because the former maintain the chromaticity that is generated by an incandescent behind the colored lens. Doing this should keep you within COLREGS specs.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Factor

Don't think so. Provided that your vessel was "legal" and in this case that means that the lights produced an intensity and field of view as required by the col regs (or equivalent enabling legislation) then there is no basis for rejecting an insurance claim, at least in the civilised world.

Neither do.

I but I do think that what I think and what an insurance company "thinks" can be two different things. And since in case of a claim I am the one who hopes for them to pay the money, I would not bet my top dollars on them using my reasoning for their making decisions on what is best for their company.

To add to the apparent confusion, I am not insured. But I am glad there is a discussion as knowing is better than not knowing, even when we know that some will resolve to act upon their knowledge while others will not.

Big hug,
b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

(...)

2W, which if you use 12V means .6 amp.

(...)

2/12=.17?

For reference, our tri-colour LED bulb burns 0.2A at 13.5V making it a roughly 2.7W unit.

It does not get hot at all. Warm perhaps.

We have a tri-colour LED inside of a tri-colour fitting (the fitting was designed around a filament bulb). Colours are great, visibility is great but green/red separation could be better imho.

I have not made any heeling tests, these could be interesting too.

b.

[Captain Bill]

This whole question of USCG certified lights is a red herring. Read the regulations! There is no such thing as a USCG certified navigation light. The Manufacturer certifies to the Coast Guard that their lamps meet the regulatory requirements by submitting test data to the coast guard. The Coast Guard does not certify anything. Furthermore Boat manufacturers must certify to the Coast Guard that the lights as installed meet the visibility requirements required by the regulations and only at the time of manufacture and it only applies to lights installed at the factory. Once the original lights are replaced then there is no certification at all. Since no light or fixture lasts for ever almost every boat out there over a few years has non-certified navigation lights. There is no proceedure what-so-ever for a private owner to certify their own installation of replacement navigation lights. Even if you replace like for like in the same mounting holes the lights are not certified. Does this mean that Insurance won't pay if you had to replace your running light fixtures...I don't think so. What are you supposed to do scrap your boat when the running light fixtures go bad because there is no procedure to certify replacement light fixtures?

[dhays]

Originally Posted by ryon

Ever hear of infrared LEDs? That's exactly what they do, generate heat.

Every light device will have a characteristic wavelength signature. Incandescent bulbs use filters because they emit a broad spectrum. LEDs can be tuned to a much narrower spectrum, and don't need filters. Remember, you're not coloring the light with filters, you are removing unwanted wavelengths instead.

IR LEDs don't produce heat (other than as unwanted energy waste) they did produce infrared light. It is the IR light energy being absorbed by what strikes it that creates the heat.




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