Drifting fishermen

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Old fella

I know you got to have rules, the trouble is they only work if all parties know and interpret them the same, nice thought but it ain't gunna happen eh.

This is not true about the COLREGS. The Rules are specifically designed so that a collision will not take place even if only ONE vessel follows them.


So this is wrong and very bad advice. This is not indeed any kind of excuse for not knowing or following them; everyone should follow the Rules. ESPECIALLY when others are not following them.



It is when TWO vessels meet, BOTH of them ignorant of the Rules, when the risk of collision becomes large.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Old fella

I know you got to have rules, the trouble is they only work if all parties know and interpret them the same, nice thought but it ain't gunna happen eh.

If you know the rules, it makes interaction with commercial vessels a heck of a lot easier - then it's only the ignorant pleasure boaters that you have to worry about. And the way the rules work with them is that you take early action and try to avoid getting into a potential collision in the first place. It still takes two to create a collision

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It is when TWO vessels meet, BOTH of them ignorant of the Rules, when the risk of collision becomes large.

Ain't that the truth!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by pembquist

To my ear they always sound a little petulant sort of like "I don't wanna give way he's supposed to" which is kind of irrelevant to avoiding collisions. The rules are supposed to be a system of mutual obligation and duties designed to avoid collisions.

Correct, but incomplete. The statement neglects that 'stand on' is itself an obligation, and on that is in time-phased conflict with Rule 2. The stand on vessel is expected to maintain course and speed in order to be predictable to the give way vessel. How long to stand on before taking action (Rule 2) is a judgment call. Two boats making a bunch of changes easily becomes a problem.


Maintaining a good watch and making discernible adjustments early is good seamanship.

Originally Posted by StuM

If you know the rules, it makes interaction with commercial vessels a heck of a lot easier - then it's only the ignorant pleasure boaters that you have to worry about. And the way the rules work with them is that you take early action and try to avoid getting into a potential collision in the first place. It still takes two to create a collision

Agree. In my experience commercial shipping treat recreational boaters as erratic and unpredictable forces of nature. They are surprised and pleased to see any sign of professionalism. Direct contact on VHF 13 early helps a lot.

[Peregrine1983]

Been reading this thread every few days since I started it. I think starting 6 pages worth of heated discussion is a record for me on CF.

StuM and others, thank you for your attempts to curb the assumptions about my "petulant" nature. I am, in fact, a reasonable person. I always "just alter course" to go around a drifting boat.

I don't have much of a choice, do I?

Coastal New England's harbor entrances are often tight, and they can have significant tidal current. Dozens upon dozens of times, I have seen people drifting in these tight entrances fishing as I and other boaters bite our nails to navigate the narrow channel, the lobster pots, and the current that could be pushing us through at 3+ knots, while they're taking up 30% of the space in the channel. Drifting.

Who is the selfish and petulant person in this situation? Who is so engrossed in his own selfish goal that he's completely oblivious to everyone around him?

I don't think it's me.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

... In my experience commercial shipping treat recreational boaters as erratic and unpredictable forces of nature. ...

As a recreational boater, that's how I view other recreational boaters.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by markpierce

As a recreational boater, that's how I view other recreational boaters.

That's very wise.


And all the more reason to follow the Rules -- TWO "erratic and unpredictable" vessels is a recipe for a collision.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by StuM

If you know the rules, it makes interaction with commercial vessels a heck of a lot easier - then it's only the ignorant pleasure boaters that you have to worry about.

Not sure I agree with this. I have been forced to turn and run down a narrow creek by a shrimper with his booms down and he wasn't fishing in the creek.
I once made the mistake of pulling out of Annapolis on opening day of rock fish season and I'm glad I didn't have a gun or I would have used it on those charter boats. I have been forced into dramatic course changes by agressive commercial guys at Manhattan and by a high speed ferry that was travelling at more than triple the speed permitted in another harbour.

Trust no one.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not sure I agree with this. I have been forced to turn and run down a narrow creek by a shrimper with his booms down and he wasn't fishing in the creek.
I once made the mistake of pulling out of Annapolis on opening day of rock fish season and I'm glad I didn't have a gun or I would have used it on those charter boats. I have been forced into dramatic course changes by agressive commercial guys at Manhattan and by a high speed ferry that was travelling at more than triple the speed permitted in another harbour.

I don't consider head boats to be professional, licensing notwithstanding. Ferries in many places operate as if they are on rails and own their route. NY and NJ ferries certainly fall in that category. The Cape May-Lewes ferry across the mouth of the Delaware Bay deserve credit for being an exception. I've found the masters on those ferries to be professional and considerate.



Lots of empty bridges on shrimpers along the US East Coast. Small fishers in the Skagerak can be scary also.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Trust no one.

Yep. I don't trust anyone, including myself. Always question.

[discokachina]

This is the best answer to your questions I could find! Check what post #18 has to say. https://www.yachtforums.com/threads/...5/#post-280185

[robertevans]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

When you are underway sailing, and you encounter a powerboat that is just drifting because it’s owner is fishing, who is the stand on vessel and who is the give way vessel? Also, what if this person is drifting in the middle of a very tight channel?

I dont think you need any rules to work out that if you are on a collision course and you expect him/her to notice you while he/her is busy, bring his/her line or net in, then start his/her engine then get out of your way, you are expecting too much and you will collide.
If the channel is tight and your unsure about sailing flick the engine on and motor sail

I know as a sailboat i have many rights of way but do not force them on anyone as i sail for pleasure and being polite and generous makes my day better, i also dont use my horn in the car as i also make mistakes.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by robertevans

I know as a sailboat i have many rights of way but do not force them on anyone as i sail for pleasure and being polite and generous makes my day better, i also dont use my horn in the car as i also make mistakes.

Sigh, over 100 posts and still we get someone who thinks they have rights and that "right of way" is a valid concept.

Have you read the other posts in this thread (or COLREGs)?

Once more with feeling:

There are NO rights under COLREGs, only obligations. Standing on in many circumstaces is an obligation and failing to do so makes you more of a hazard to other vessels since your actions become unpredictable.

And a horn is not intended as a device to chide other drivers, it is a warning device - that's why COLREGs require the use of sound signals in various situations.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robertevans

I dont think you need any rules to work out that if you are on a collision course and you expect him/her to notice you while he/her is busy, bring his/her line or net in, then start his/her engine then get out of your way, you are expecting too much and you will collide.
If the channel is tight and your unsure about sailing flick the engine on and motor sail

This is absolutely correct, and fits right into the Rules. Those facts give you a reasonable doubt as to his intention to maneuver, so those parts of Rule 17 kick in and you may, then must maneuver yourself.

Originally Posted by robertevans

I know as a sailboat i have many rights of way but do not force them on anyone as i sail for pleasure and being polite and generous makes my day better, i also dont use my horn in the car as i also make mistakes.

And this is absolutely incorrect (other than being polite and generous of course). You do not have even one "right of way". It's been said over and over, but we musn't get tired of repeating it -- there is no such thing as right of way under the Rules. You have no rights of any kind which you ever have any right to "force on" anyone. You must understand this to have any idea of how the Rules work. By doing what you said in the first paragraph, you are not "giving up" any "rights" -- you are on the contrary doing exactly what the Rules require.


When you DON'T have a reasonable doubt whether the designated give-way vessel intends to maneuver, you have an OBLIGATION to stand on long enough to give him a chance to do his maneuver. You are not exercising a right; you are fulfilling an obligation. All this time you are still equally responsible for preventing a collision and must be ready to maneuver yourself.


Being "polite and generous" is professional and is good seamanship, so good on you for that, of course.

[Breaking Waves]

Personally, I would consider the situation OP described a rule 2, and I would expect to maneuver around the guy drifting/fishing.


As an aside, some fraction of the time, you, in fact, are going to be approaching from his stern, and thus will be an overtaking vessel in this situation.

[sailorboy1]

“Rules” threads always make me feel safe