Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

[osirissail]

Zudnic - where did you get the following section you quoted? It sounds illogical at first look.

"I was discussing simular on another forum. The U.S is pretty over regulated when it comes to boating. Especially when it comes to foreigners.

USCG states: Quote: An undocumented pleasure vessel owned by a resident alien in the United States, whether state registered or not, is for Customs purposes considered an undocumented foreign vessel; and is not exempt from entry and clearance within the meaning of the provisions in 19 U.S.C. 1441(3) and 46 U.S.C. App. 91.

Such a situation could affect me so I would like to know the source of your information.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Post #61 in this thread states that a vessel operated by a foreigner, regardless of it's registration, is considered a foreign vessel and must report at every port visited, even if the last port was domestic.
Apparently, only US citizens are afforded unrestricted movement of vessels within the US waters.

Post #61 may be wrong information as it flies in the face of common practice already in existence within the States, in particular the State of Florida. There is no attribution/source to that statement in post #61

[zudnic]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Post #61 may be wrong information as it flies in the face of common practice already in existence within the States, in particular the State of Florida. There is no attribution/source to that statement in post #61

The big problem with federal laws is the agencies can adopt rules on how to apply them. Often called local rules. Often not enforced and some area's are real pains. I called the closest U.S Border land with questions and they said: this information should not be applied to specific cases or situations. Didn't want to be specific.

Gave this example: Lots of Canadians have vacation homes in Washington State and because of Vancouver's over priced market. Many people sold their primary Canadian residences. They turned their vacation home into their only residence. These people most commute daily into Canada for work. The U.S State Department website said that Canadians do not normally need visas for the United States. It went on to say that the only time a Canadian citizen needs a visa is if married to a non Canadian. The visa would allow the spouse to join them in the United States. US customs tells Canadians who frequently cross the border to join NEXUS. This would allow them to explain their frequent crossings only once and avoid border wait times.

Visas for Mexican and Canadian NAFTA Professional Workers

Canadian citizens usually do not need a visa as a NAFTA Professional, although a visa can be issued to qualified TN visa applicants upon request. A Canadian citizen without a TN visa can apply at a U.S. port of entry. Learn about requirements and more on the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) website and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) website. Canadian citizens can also review information regarding TN visas through U.S. Embassy Ottawa's website.
When Does a Canadian NAFTA Professional Need a Visa? A Canadian residing in another country with a non-Canadian spouse and child would need a visa to enable the spouse and child to be able to apply for a visa to accompany or join the NAFTA Professional, as a TD visa holder. Canadians applying for a visa will follow the same documentation requirements as shown in the sections Mexican Citizens, Applying for a TN Visa, and Required Documentation.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection has a totally different view on NAFTA visa's for Canadians. Many commuted this way for months. Until one day the new head guy decided to stop, question and inspect these daily commuters with NEXUS cards.

Didn't sound like the U.S Customs liked most of their answers--the State Department said I don't need a visa to live and do NAFTA and I was told that a NEXUS card would get me out of questioning, etcetera.

He wouldn't say an outcome. Just the laws can confuse everyone. Each local region operates differently. One day someone notices and goes about fixing things, etcetera.

American Citizenship has less confusion. When immigration is involved it becomes a whole new ball game.

Was told the visa waiver program mixed with the cruising permit can be a mess. Not for US Customs those who don't follow the rules or think they are the ones who suffer.

CBP website:

for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa.

A large number of visa waiver folks come into the United States and have 90 days or less. They'll get a cruising permit thats valid for a year. Head over to the Bahama's not exit properly. Come back in. Discover that they no longer have a visa waiver and need one to get into the U.S again. Plus they have over stayed the 90 days. Ends in getting into criminal illegal immigration battle.........................

Even if your following the rules they like checking and using the laws. They also catch over stays and drug/alien smugglers along with totally innocent folks............................................. ................

[osirissail]

Zudnic - Great information, but unfortunately considerably "off topic" which is about taking a USA boat that is State (e.g. Florida, Washington, Louisanna, etc.) titled and registered boat and sailing to foreign countries. Can it be done, are the difficulties to be expected, or can you be denied entry to some foreign countries and other problems.
- - It is obviously being done as such vessels are in fact cruising out of US Territorial waters successfully even though they fall underneath the lower size limit of being able to get USCG Documented (Federal level documentation). Unfortunately, we have not heard anything from any folks who have actually been doing this as they are not on this Forum or are not sharing.
- - Although also off topic a bit, my post #76 still remains unanswered - where did you get the information that a LPR (legal resident alien, otherwise known as a "green card holder") who owns and operates a wholly US State titled and registered vessel would be considered owning a "foreign" vessel and subsequently would be required to have a "USCG cruising permit" to operate inside the USA.
- - A lot of information posted by a lot of contributors to CF is "heresay" - I've posted a lot myself - nothing wrong with that. But normally you add a disclaimer that "you had heard . . . " rather than presenting it as an extract from an official document unattributed as to the source.
- - Since your statement I quoted in post #76 could directly affect my personal situation and is contrary to my sources of information, I am personally interested in finding out where it came from, as you stated in post #78 that different officials interpret the same regulations differently. Which in my experience is all too true.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by zudnic

. . . Was told the visa waiver program mixed with the cruising permit can be a mess. Not for US Customs those who don't follow the rules or think they are the ones who suffer.

CBP website:

A large number of visa waiver folks come into the United States and have 90 days or less. They'll get a cruising permit thats valid for a year. Head over to the Bahama's not exit properly. Come back in. Discover that they no longer have a visa waiver and need one to get into the U.S again. Plus they have over stayed the 90 days. Ends in getting into criminal illegal immigration battle. . .

This information has been disussed ad infinitum in various previous CF threads. It boils down to simply that the Visa Waiver Program is in essence a restoration of the pre-9/11 tourist visa system modified to be ONLY applicable to entry and departure via Commercial Scheduled Carriers - such as airlines and commercial ferry service (e.g., American Airlines, BA, etc., and the Tortola/USVI ferries). If is made abundantly clear by US Visa websites that any entry via any other form of transportation such as privately owned vessels, surfboards or even swimming requires a long form Visa such as a B1/B2 or other classification.
- - Departing the USA by any means what-so-ever terminates a VWP visa. Any re-entry subsequently requires processing as if you have not been in the USA previously. In other words, your entry is a new entry and must comply with the rules.
- - Maybe while in the Bahamas you could fly by commercial carrier back to Florida re-enter on a VWP then fly back to the Bahamas and bring your boat over. I have never heard anything about anybody ever doing this probably because it would be rather expensive and trying to get a new Cruising Permit might be a "sticky wicket" since you and the boat did not initially enter the USA together. It is being done successfully from the BVI to USVI via commercial ferries, but I suspect is is being allowed by your mentioned, local interpretation of the overall regulations.

[zudnic]

Originally Posted by osirissail

This information has been disussed ad infinitum in various previous CF threads. It boils down to simply that the Visa Waiver Program is in essence a restoration of the pre-9/11 tourist visa system modified to be ONLY applicable to entry and departure via Commercial Scheduled Carriers.

Exactly--so what happens if they leave the US via private pleasure vessel? They no longer qualify for the waiver. Sometimes customs get be nice let it pass, other times not. No gray area or law 100% guarntee's an immigration officer or US Customs Agent will let you land in the United States. The problem if someone needs a visa--US consulates have a regulation that they can only provide services to citizens or landed immigrants of that country.

Try taking a Cuban Immigrant boating in Florida without their green card. Dry foot wet foot semi applies to anyone and everyone. Even in the 1950's a immigration officer could prevent an American citizen from landing on dry land until they proved their citizenship.

Same with a boat with a cruising permit burden of proof is on the user to prove they are legally entitled to use it.

If your a Canadian Citizen with 50% British North American blood ie one of your parents is 100% and get a green card. You cannot be deported from the United States for any reason. Its even illegal for an American employer to deny someone with this status employment for lack of green card. Inside the United States they don't need any immigration documentation--even to receive government services. Leave the United States after committing any crimes good luck trying to get back inside!!!!!!

[Capt Phil]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the OP's issue. There may not be much of a practical problem cruising internationally aboard a state registered vessel owned and operated by a non-US citizen. I don't know of anyone being denied state registration because they are not US citizens. It is really up to the officials in the country's one is visiting.
A more concerning issue is when the non-US citizen owner/operator of the same boat tries to renter the US. My guess is that there my be some rather problematic questions asked by US Customs and Immigration folks on re-entry. Not sure what the outcomes might be. If you don't ever plan to bring the boat back to the US, probably not a problem.
Take the situation of the Canadian now living in Blaine or Point Roberts, WA commuting back to Canada under the NEXUS program and owning a Washington State registered boat used exclusively in US waters. Should he decide to cruise over to White Rock, BC or the Canadian Gulf Islands for a weekend, re-entry into the US at Blaine or Point Roberts could pose a problem and trying to skirt the C&I is a bad idea. I have it first hand that there is a 24/7 electronic surveilance of the whole area extending out the Straights of Juan de Fuca.
Point is if your vessel use is contained within the US, preferably the state in which the boat is registered, no problem... heading out to foreign waters, probably no problem. But trying to renter... OOPS! Capt Phil

[zudnic]

Pacific Coast has a few things that let people have a good reason for not reporting exit/entry, etcetera. (sarcasm)

The Point Roberts, I'm super familiar with that place. In the old days even pre NAFTA, talking 1980's. You could launch a small boat near the BC Ferries terminal. Boat around the area and even fish at the border marker--Point Roberts for on water fuel was closest marina. They had a customs phone on the dock. Say you camped on the Canadian side and used Point Roberts for fuel only--normally US Customs if they figured your just getting gas they'd let you report once instead of call every time you came to fuel up. People seldom called Canada when they returned to their camp site---beer and cigarettes alot cheaper at the marina. Guess people thought they got away with this. No electronic stuff that they have these days.

What people didn't know was Canada has something called the preclearance act:

Preclearance Act

preclearance laws” means the law of the United States with respect to customs, immigration, public health, food inspection and plant and animal health that is applicable to the admission of travellers or the importation of goods to the United States, including the laws listed in the schedule. It includes monetary penalty provisions in such law but does not include anything that would be considered criminal under Canadian law.
“preclearance officer”

« contrôleur »
“preclearance officer” means a person authorized by the United States to perform preclearance duties in Canada for the purposes of customs, immigration, public health, food inspection and plant and animal health.

The act is reviewed every 5 years and often repassed since 1974. Since Point Roberts can only be reached by Land via Canada. So U.S Customs agents are authorized as preclearance officers--lets them carry their guns, etcetera while driving in Canada, back in those days. But it also let them pass on boat registration numbers and such to Canada. Cause under the act they are also technically "Canadian" federal law enforcement as well. Thats how US Customs have immigration at Canadian airports!

So very often the RCMP who don't usually police in this area would take a special trip to the campsites! They know how to tell American sold Canadian products like smokes and beer are from the states. Even if you switch packages..............................

Point Roberts is in Blaine Sector overall. Since Delta, BC and White Rock, etcetera are so close. Plus the electronic capabilities they are pretty good without that stuff. Besides close co-operation in designated preclearance, border patrol has lots of leeway near the border. On the ground assets from road vehicles to off road ATV's. Human intel.

A preclearance officer in the authorized preclearance zone:

Protection of persons acting under authority
12. (1) A preclearance officer is, if the officer acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what the officer is required or authorized to do under this Act or the regulations, and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

When not protected
(2) A preclearance officer must not use force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm unless the officer believes on reasonable grounds that it is necessary for self-preservation or the preservation of anyone under the officer’s protection from death or grievous bodily harm.

Besides the land based inside and outside both countries. So dealing with a U.S Customs agent inside Canada is just like dealing with all LAW ENFORCEMENT. The criminal law is American laws can't be applied inside Canada--they can charge YOU UNDER CANADIAN CRIMINAL LAWS! Many Canadians have thought they could treat these Officers like METER MAIDS and learned a painfull lesson! They can protect themselves just like ALL POLICE!!!!

Canada-U.S. Shiprider, officially known as Integrated Cross-border Maritime Law Enforcement Operations (ICMLEO), represents a truly cooperative approach to combating cross border crime on Canada and U.S. shared waterways.
Canada-U.S. Shiprider removes the international maritime boundary as a barrier to law enforcement by enabling seamless continuity of enforcement and security operations across the border, facilitating cross-border surveillance and interdiction, and serving as both a force multiplier and, potentially, as a model for other U.S./Canadian cross-border (integrated) enforcement and security initiatives.
This enforcement initiative is governed by the 2009 Canada-U.S. Framework Agreement on Integrated Cross-Border Maritime Law Enforcement Operations. The Framework Agreement on integrated law enforcement operations in boundary waters with the U.S. was signed in May 2009 by former Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan and Janet Napolitano, U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security.

The two countries also have:

Frequently Asked Questions

IBET is an integrated bi-national law enforcement team involving agencies from both Canada and the United States. The team analyzes and responds to information gathered from a collection of border agencies pertaining to illegal cross border activity.
Through these intelligence-led partnerships, IBETs has the ability to focus on targeting national security, organized crime and other border related criminal activities.
There are currently 24 teams located in 15 IBET regions along the Canada/US border.

Note my sources are not some conspiracy its the RCMP!!!!

What the above means be very carefull if you attempt to manipulate Canada's and The United States immigration laws. They are possibly the simplest and most fair in the World between two countries. Gray areas are a lot harder to justify when they can and probably have everything you've done well documented.

Law Enforcement hate it when you are white lying thinking if you don't you'll get into real trouble. Sometimes not knowing the rules and how law enforcement is using them--gets you into trouble.

In other words find out before you do anything and be as honest as you can be in appearance. Actions speak louder than words!

RCMP training Depot is in Chilliwack, BC. They teach American law enforcement at this location. Part of all law enforcement training is real world with training officers. So sometimes they'll stop you just to show how an honest person behaves or not! British Columbia could very well be the main real world training for this co-operative intergration or not. If it is chances are your going to run into patrols, etcetera.

Not that this is a bad scary conspiracy, so you all understand. Complete opposite--- makes it so we can be safe and secure. Go back to the days when Point Roberts was pretty open and free--un less you took advantage even innocently--pack of smokes smuggled back because get authorized to not check in all the time and these small amounts are "ok" as a innocent mistake. But large amounts smuggling gets you jailed. I think this co-operation will make things go into a positive way--a border with min hassle of red tape and honest mistake will be forgiven much easier!!!!!

Boating on the west coast Id look into: Canadian Border Boat Landing (I-68) Program - CBP.gov

As a start.

[markpierce]

Obvious from this thread's discussion, the world is not a boater's oyster without significant governmental hassles.

[goboatingnow]

If your a Canadian Citizen with 50% British North American blood ie one of your parents is 100% and get a green card. You cannot be deported from the United States for any reason. Its even illegal for an American employer to deny someone with this status employment for lack of green card.

I'm intrigued what is British American blood. , from what century , what definition of british. Seems that statement is nonsense

Dave

[Capt Phil]

Grea info, Zudnic... thanks.... Capt Phil

[zudnic]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'm intrigued what is British American blood. , from what century , what definition of british. Seems that statement is nonsense

Dave

British NORTH AMERICA as in Canada was not a country, a colony under British rule.................................... As in todays Canada's portion of North America. Except the United States calls them Canadian born American Indians. The people who lived in North America before Europe found it the originals First Nations people, United States for stealing their lands allows freely flowing immigration--US Immigration can only deny entry if the native Indian can't prove they are 50% blood of that race.

Canada still has the Union Jack as an official national flag to acknowledge the British heritage ie British Parliament still had oversight over Canada until 1982. The Queen with the grandson who is getting married soon is also Canada's current Sovereign Monarch as well as that once vast empire that the sun never set in---As in Queen Victoria named British Columbia, to remind America that it is British! Our provincial flag is also a reminder to America of the power of the British Empire!!!!!!!!! Cause of that whole 54 40 nonsense. To keep a corner of Victoria our provincial capital, also named for our provinces namer--Canada let the U.S keep Point Roberts! The neighbor city of the Point is Tsawwessen, BC named after the Indian tribe also in the area. Inside joke calling them British North American's-- Royal Proclamation threatnens the wrath of the British Empire if any government is established around them in North America, and messes with them. Even if Britain is long gone from North America....more or less grand standing reminding the Americans who rules the world!

[goboatingnow]

Wow ,as a history buff I won't even comment on that misguided post.

Would we be talking post or pre 1783

Ps you may have the union flag as part of your national flag( till 1907) ( and the subsequent unofficial canadian red ensign and of course the Royal union flag but I could go on forever hereabout flags and ensigns) the union jack is the union flag from a jack staff as only appropriate to her majesty naval vessels !

Dave

[Capt Phil]

I think there a lot of Canadians who still feel that the Union Jack is A national flag as oposed to THE national flag. I recall it being a real issue when the Red Ensign with the Union Jack in the upper left hand corner became the accepted Canadian flag.
The currently accepted Canadian flag with the marijuana leaf in the center is certainly all the vogue now.
Unfortunately, I've been gone from the 'frozen north' for so long I don't even know the new words to the national anthem but my grand kids do in both English and French!
Ahh, Progress (?)... cheers, Capt Phil

[markpierce]

Is the Hawaiian State Flag ever confused for a national flag of a British commonwealth country?