Certificate of Competency for Leisure Yachts

[conachair]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I've looked at comparisons of fatalities from Norway and the UK, the UKs estimated boating fleet is about 550,000 vessels, whereas Norway has about 880,000, yet UK fatalities are 5 times greater. !!!

Hence one can take no comfort or draw no real conclusions that the UK is any better because it has no certification. It's a dangerous self delusion based on a degree of smugness that is not borne out by facts.

Dave

Do you have a link to the nature of the fatalities?

Edit, plus is there evidence that the fatalities were caused by untrained individuals and that training could have changed the outcome?

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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by conachair

Do you have a link to the nature of the fatalities?

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No the Norway relate to leisure fatalities, as do the UK, what's difficult to ascertain is the nature or reason behind the fatality. Ie if someone drowns falling of a dock at a marina , that will be counted as a leisure fatality, even if it's not a boating one.

By comparison fatalities on the UKs inland waterways is twice as high again. No doubt reflecting deaths due to swimming and complacency around rivers, which are far more likely to kill then the sea.


No it's impossible to say whether training helped or didn't. What can be inferred from Norway, is the UK is not the safest place to boat. Equally the UK has no competency certification, Correlation ,the lack of such certification is causing fatalities , BUT , that correlation has significant holes in it.


Dave

[conachair]

Looking at leasure vessels, the MAIB lists just 3 fatalities onboard yachts since 1999. http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...y_fatality.cfm
One on a sail training vessel, one a yachtmaster offshore skipper and the other a delivery skipper. It's hard to see how you can infer anything about training based on Yachting fatalities. That's assuming they will all have been investigated by MAIB.

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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by conachair

Looking at leasure vessels, the MAIB lists just 3 fatalities onboard yachts since 1999. http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...y_fatality.cfm
One on a sail training vessel, one a yachtmaster offshore skipper and the other a delivery skipper. It's hard to see how you can infer anything about training based on Yachting fatalities. That's assuming they will all have been investigated by MAIB.

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Well Maib is very specific stats. But we're agreeing with each other. I was pointing out that reaching a conclusion that the UK is safer and has no licensing as against countries that have licensing is nebulous, positive or negative.

Personally I beleive that competency based training is a good idea , and that this is very different from licensing. The challenge is always about where you set the " bar". The main aim of most mandatory certificate systems is to educate the occasional water user, ski boat, jet skies, etc. the average yachtsman going to sea on a regular basis is not the intended audience , even if they do get caught up in the net.

Dave

[valhalla360]

I'm curious with the UK vs Norway how the boating conditions differ.

Is the UK's pleasure boating (while smaller in overall size) more concentrated?

In traffic engineering, we find the crash rates for busy intersections are much higher even when accounting for the number of entering vehicles. A lot of it is at a low volume intersection, if you make a mistake, there is a good chance there is no one to hit. If you have two major arterials crossing, a mistake is almost certain to result in you hitting someone. It could be a similar situation if Norways boating is more distributed.

As mentioned, you would have to dig in and break down inland waterways, swiming, locking, etc. to get a real picture.

Also, was there a single major accident or storm in Norway back in 2004? I usually avoid using the number of fatalities but instead the number of fatal crashes. That spike looks like data I've had where a bus crash makes the fatalities look horrible but when you look at fatal crashes, there is nothing unusual going on.

[carstenb]

The European Boating Association has tried for years to put together a meaningful comparative list of boating fatalities sans luck. Countries collect these statistic differently, with some saying, anything that happened on the water (cruise ship hits rocks 35 deaths = part of the stats as well as drunk falls off pier and drowns - also in stats.


Perhaps someday the EU can twist the arms of the members and get comparative statistics, but it is a long ways off.

Re: the ICC - this is a document that falls under the United Nations. Countries that base their maritime educational systems on the IMO (International Maritime Organisation), such as Denmark, don't issue an ICC, because the Danish Sailing Proficiency Certificate is already and International certificate.

Lots of bureaucracy.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the only internationally recognized training program is the RYA. The Danish Yachtmaster program is recognized by the IMO (the body that governs large ships)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by carstenb

The European Boating Association has tried for years to put together a meaningful comparative list of boating fatalities sans luck. Countries collect these statistic differently, with some saying, anything that happened on the water (cruise ship hits rocks 35 deaths = part of the stats as well as drunk falls off pier and drowns - also in stats.





Perhaps someday the EU can twist the arms of the members and get comparative statistics, but it is a long ways off.



Re: the ICC - this is a document that falls under the United Nations. Countries that base their maritime educational systems on the IMO (International Maritime Organisation), such as Denmark, don't issue an ICC, because the Danish Sailing Proficiency Certificate is already and International certificate.



Lots of bureaucracy.



I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the only internationally recognized training program is the RYA. The Danish Yachtmaster program is recognized by the IMO (the body that governs large ships)

Just to clarify something. The ICC is issued under the authority of the UNECE , the UN ecomonic commission for Europe , set up in 1947 to further European integration. The USA is a member. The IMO is a different UN body altogether

Under resolution 40 signatories resolved to recognise and issue ICCs. Many countries however had national certificates either different , lower or higher standards and hence did not sign resolution 40.

While I understand Carsten what you do, I think your wrong in that to my knowledge the IMO Does not get involved in Yachtmaster standards. The term Yachtmaster was invented by the RYA who to there everlasting chagrin never trade marked the term. Yachtmaster has no formal standard and the term can be applied to anything

"the Danish Sailing Proficiency Certificate is already and International certificate." I doubt it, as their is no formal process to have leisure certificates recognised internationally. Some countries like Croatia have formal recognition of many certificates, but must countries merely demand that a flag yacht is skippered by a person deemed competent in the flag country. Hence " international" recognition does not exist. ( for example you cannot interchange Yachtmasters)

Dave

[SFH]

A lot of inputs and comments but I am still sort of left in the dark.

What rules would apply if I e.g. want to sail in Danish waters assuming the following:

1. I am Danish with a Danish passport

2. I left Denmark many years ago and though I hold a Danish passport I have residence permit in another country (a country under the commonwealth)

3. My boat is 53ft - i.e. more than 15 mters, registered in Gibraltar and flying the Red Ensign .

Under the UK Law I can sail a boat up to 24 meters without any certificate but under Danish Law this is prohibited unless I have a Y3 certificate.

What determines the Law that applies: Nationality of the skipper, residence of the skipper or registration of the boat?


/Steen

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by SFH

A lot of inputs and comments but I am still sort of left in the dark.



What rules would apply if I e.g. want to sail in Danish waters assuming the following:



1. I am Danish with a Danish passport



2. I left Denmark many years ago and though I hold a Danish passport I have residence permit in another country (a country under the commonwealth)



3. My boat is 53ft - i.e. more than 15 mters, registered in Gibraltar and flying the Red Ensign .



Under the UK Law I can sail a boat up to 24 meters without any certificate but under Danish Law this is prohibited unless I have a Y3 certificate.



What determines the Law that applies: Nationality of the skipper, residence of the skipper or registration of the boat?





/Steen

The flag of the boat determines what applies. ( even though the Danish law could be made to apply to any boat in its waters. But comity applies

Dave

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by SFH

A lot of inputs and comments but I am still sort of left in the dark.

What rules would apply if I e.g. want to sail in Danish waters assuming the following:

1. I am Danish with a Danish passport

2. I left Denmark many years ago and though I hold a Danish passport I have residence permit in another country (a country under the commonwealth)

3. My boat is 53ft - i.e. more than 15 mters, registered in Gibraltar and flying the Red Ensign .

Under the UK Law I can sail a boat up to 24 meters without any certificate but under Danish Law this is prohibited unless I have a Y3 certificate.

What determines the Law that applies: Nationality of the skipper, residence of the skipper or registration of the boat?


/Steen

The Danish law only applies if the boat is flying a Danish flag ,meaning it is a Danish boat.

[Zanshin]

SFH - I'm in an almost identical situation to yourself, I have a 15+ meter boat under red ensign, am a German citizen but resident of the UK. I do not need any certification for the boat under British rules but would need certification under German rules. I asked the water police (the same folks who would check me) in Germany what my status would be if I took the boat to Germany and was told it was a difficult question but I would probably be fined and perhaps stopped until I could prove residency overseas, in which case the flag state licensing laws would apply. If your Danish passport has a "residency" field which list an overseas residency that should suffice. Basically the police said that a German in Germany with a foreign flagged boat is suspect, it just isnt' normal. There is also a law in Germany that if you are German and a resident of Germany your vessel *must* be registered in Germany.
The VAT issue is potentially much more costly and dangerous than a mere licensing fine, since if they determine you underlie Danish rules you will need to prove VAT paid status and, if that has not been paid, you will have to cough up that amount immediately. I mention this because your Gibraltar flag might indicate a flag of convenience. I spent a bit of time working in Copenhagen and know the horror stories of car taxes and enormous fines levied for people trying to circumvent them with Swedish or special commercial plates and assume that the boat tax authorities are just as energetic in locating sources of income.

In my case I opted to take the route of least conflict and got the appropriate German licenses (having to learn a lot of useless information but also some very useful stuff in the process). I won't be sailing back to Germany until my boat has depreciated enough to make paying VAT affordable.

[goboatingnow]

Once your boat is registered in an EU country. Then VAT is only applicable in that EU country. A German custom official can not intervene in a UK ( for example ) VAT issue. Nor in fact would actually paying the vat in say Germany absolve you of any vat issue in the UK.

This is because tax is not harmonised across the EU and is jealousy guarded by each country.

This is irrespective of what any mis guided custom official might think.

The only reason a EU official " could" determine that vat was due was if he or she determined that the yacht was being imported into the EU for the first time.

But, avoid Registering in tax havens like gib or the channel isles.

Dave


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[SFH]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Once your boat is registered in an EU country. Then VAT is only applicable in that EU country. A German custom official can not intervene in a UK ( for example ) VAT issue. Nor in fact would actually paying the vat in say Germany absolve you of any vat issue in the UK.

This is because tax is not harmonised across the EU and is jealousy guarded by each country.

This is irrespective of what any mis guided custom official might think.

The only reason a EU official " could" determine that vat was due was if he or she determined that the yacht was being imported into the EU for the first time.

But, avoid Registering in tax havens like gib or the channel isles.

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Dave,
Could you please explain your last statement: "But, avoid Registering in tax havens like gib or the channel isles".

The previous owner of my boat have already paid tax in the UK so what are the problems that I might face if I decide to register in Gibraltar?


Steen

[Zanshin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...Once your boat is registered in an EU country. Then VAT is only applicable in that EU country. A German custom official can not intervene in a UK ( for example ) VAT issue. Nor in fact would actually paying the vat in say Germany absolve you of any vat issue in the UK.
...The only reason a EU official " could" determine that vat was due was if he or she determined that the yacht was being imported into the EU for the first time.

That's not quite true, when a vessel flagged in a EU stat and clearing into the EU the officials can, and do, request proof of VAT paid status. If that is not forthcoming, then they can, and do, levy immediate VAT according to the local country rate. I posted some links here a couple of weeks ago to (German) threads about what the German authorities do, but there are numerous authoritative links on the web and if I had a faster internet connection here in this anchorage I would find the appropriate legal reference as well. Since this is "easy income" for a country as the VAT is paid upon entry, so they will check - just imagine how happy the Greeks are to get this type of income!

Here's one good link on the topic: ABYA | Information | VAT

Originally Posted by article

... It is vital to pass this information on when the boat is sold, as it may be requested by Customs officers in either the UK or elsewhere in the EU...

[SFH]

The link from Zanshin below provides so far the best information I have come across:

"A boat that is VAT-paid but is sold outside the EU loses its VAT-paid status and therefore VAT must be paid if the boat is brought back into the EU. Boats kept outside the EU for over 3 years may have to pay again.


Together with Customs Notice 8 that gives very good information.

The only issue that I am trying to clarify now is what is actually meant by "sold outside the EU"

I am an EU citizen and a holder of a EU passport but currently resides in a non-EU country for work purposes.

The boat is VAT paid in the EU, will be registered by me in the EU and will not at any point in time leave the EU.

Does this mean that the boat is actually sold "outside the EU" if I use my non-EU residence address on the Bill of Sale or shoult I change this before proceeding with registration?


/Steen

Originally Posted by Zanshin

That's not quite true, when a vessel flagged in a EU stat and clearing into the EU the officials can, and do, request proof of VAT paid status. If that is not forthcoming, then they can, and do, levy immediate VAT according to the local country rate. I posted some links here a couple of weeks ago to (German) threads about what the German authorities do, but there are numerous authoritative links on the web and if I had a faster internet connection here in this anchorage I would find the appropriate legal reference as well. Since this is "easy income" for a country as the VAT is paid upon entry, so they will check - just imagine how happy the Greeks are to get this type of income!

Here's one good link on the topic: ABYA | Information | VAT