Apparently AIS & RADAR not Adequate Substitute for Lookout

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Montanan

It was disconcerting to watch the video and to not hear a single word about whether anyone on the trawler was injured or an inquiry made as to damage done to the fishing boat. It was like listening to a hit and run driver speak about how lucky he was to avoid injury or dramatic damage.

Incredibly one-sided and self-centered perspective. He was merely disappointed that he was going to lose positions as to the leaders in the race.

He was sailing, likely at considerable speed with no watch keeping. Illegal and unethical.

Well said. He also has an obligation to avoid collision even if he has right of way. Incredibly arrogant.

[roland stockham]

A fishing boat with gear down becomes the stand on vessel and would often not even be able to avoid a fast sailboat.

[aqfishing]

The other problem wit AIS is that it is not a legal requirement for all vessels...yet. Most likely it may never be such in all countries for all size vessels. So you could never rely on it.

[250224]

Originally Posted by bobgarrett

You better check this...https://mas400.com/ sets sail this spring.

Great link!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by bobgarrett

You better check this...https://mas400.com/ sets sail this spring.

I wonder if the owners have permission from their flag state (UK) to operate unmanned and if they arrive in the US do they have US permission?

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I wonder if the owners have permission from their flag state (UK) to operate unmanned and if they arrive in the US do they have US permission?

The “C” in COLREGS stands for convention.

Therefore, I do not believe any one country can unilaterally alter COLREGS.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by peter loveridge

it is rare around here ( western Nova Scotia) that fishing vessels actually fishing have their AIS transmitting. Neither do the fisheries patrol vessels. Average fishing boat 50 feet long, 28-32 feet beam, so unless you very large a collision is going to hurt. In nearly 50 years of cruising the only time I've heard a horn is if they have a target on their radar that they can't identify. They never sound a bell, either, if anchored. Many of the longliners drift with everything off at night. They don't sound anything either

Originally Posted by aqfishing

The other problem wit AIS is that it is not a legal requirement for all vessels...yet. Most likely it may never be such in all countries for all size vessels. So you could never rely on it.

Indeed not all vessels are required to have AIS and even the one's that do it is not always going to be operational, albeit if it is not working then the vessel is required to only complete a short voyage and to head to a port for prompt repair.

To rely on an AIS alarm is foolhardy from the get go. Yes, if you have such an alarm it would be beneficial and prudent to activate it as it is a useful aid, but to rely on it, No, Hell No.

By way of example:

[zeehag]

electronix are only as good as the receiver of said information, as the info must be interpreted by a human being.. where is said human being during the incident and during the warning time?
electronix fail. eyeballs donot suddenly fail . unless you are having a stroke.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I wonder if the owners have permission from their flag state (UK) to operate unmanned and if they arrive in the US do they have US permission?

I wonder if the owners have any concept about colregs or shipping in general? While I appreciate the technical breakthroughs here, I'm not sure what the ultimate goal is. I have a feeling that their first collision will have them sued into insolvency.

[james pask]

The latest generation Imoca boats all have OSCAR systems on board too , these are incredible pieces of kit which are used drive the autopilot as well to avoid collision with flotsam etc, even this didn't save Boris - who sailed an incredible race preserving his boat for the sprint up the Atlantic - it was very unfortunate for him to be taken out like this - the Vende is a fantastic and challenging race.

[Rotten Ricky]

While some who prefer their own company might feel that single-handed races are great, I think they are selfish and irresponsible for many reasons. No matter how these sleep-deprived people come to grief through not being able to maintain proper supervision of their vessel, and with or without electronic aids, often someone else is required to put their lives in danger to rescue them. This is also an enormous strain on the budget of a small country like New Zealand. Racing single-handed through the ice-bergs of the Southern Ocean ice-bergs is absolutely nuts.

The companies that sponsor these selfish sailors should be charged for their rescue and should be boycotted.

Cheers, RR.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Snore

The “C” in COLREGS stands for convention.

Therefore, I do not believe any one country can unilaterally alter COLREGS.

Flag state has jurisdiction of their vessels in all international waters and jurisdiction over all vessels in their territorial waters.

The indicated vessel appears to be UK flagged so the UK would have jurisdiction for any voyage leaving the UK until it reached another nation's territorial waters at which point the other nation has jurisdiction.

COLREGs require a lookout by sight and sound. Whether an autonomous vessel can keep a lookout without a human is an exceptional case that has not yet been established in law, either by legislation or by case law.

I suspect governments are mostly not wanting to deal with this yet and waiting to see how this shakes out and hopefully the big legal cases happen somewhere else so they can learn from somebody else's accident.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rotten Ricky

While some who prefer their own company might feel that single-handed races are great, I think they are selfish and irresponsible for many reasons. No matter how these sleep-deprived people come to grief through not being able to maintain proper supervision of their vessel, and with or without electronic aids, often someone else is required to put their lives in danger to rescue them. This is also an enormous strain on the budget of a small country like New Zealand. Racing single-handed through the ice-bergs of the Southern Ocean ice-bergs is absolutely nuts.

The companies that sponsor these selfish sailors should be charged for their rescue and should be boycotted.

Cheers, RR.

Yet these incidents occur on crewed boats as well..

https://www.efe.com/efe/english/spor...000266-3498367

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by james pask

....it was very unfortunate for him to be taken out like this....

It was only a matter of time before this happened again, if it wasn't him this time it would be another competitor before long. Happened once before, in the 1990s I think.

I wonder if the fishing boat can go after the sponsors for damages? The boats are racing in the public right of way so it's not like a car race on a track where spectators have waived liability to be there.

[zstine]

COLREGS DO NOT require someone "ON DECK" to look and listen. The government has approved Naval ghost fleet overlord unmanned boats to operate IAW COLREGS BUT THEY ARE NOT AUTONOMOUS, they are "remotely manned" as sensors send live feeds to men keeping watch.

" Commodore Capt. Hank Adams said ... that, using an Overlord vessel in the end of Fiscal Year 2020 . . . he would create the first 24-hour watch “of a fleet-manned unmanned operations center ashore, UOC ashore. It’s going to be here in San Diego. So I’m going to have fleet operators, [surface warfare]-qualified junior officers who have got training in COLREGs and ship-handling and things like that, and senior enlisted personnel in relevant rates, are going to stand up this watch"


That said, there are likely hundreds of autonomous boats sailing around 'for science' like the Mayflower, Geospatial's sail-drone, SCOUT transatlantic, the open ocean robotics boat, etc. These are using sensors and computers to avoid collisions. It has yet to be seen if this would hold up in court as no authority has certified them to COLREGS as far as I know.


Boris was in violation of the law, as are all the sailors in the Vendee Globe. It is a known risk/issue. AIS and RADAR are not a proper lookout, but soon 'sensors and computers' will certainly be approved to COLREG rule 5.