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Old 23-02-2010, 12:12   #106
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Nor will it probably ever..now with Homeland Security being what it is...some of it was good some if it wasn't.

I Have always been OK with searches of my boats or cars...I have nothing to hide...its just an inconvenience to me much like renewing my drivers licence.

It is amazing how many criminals that allude the law are caught by being pulled over for a silly traffic infraction like a burned out tail light...I like that!
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Old 23-02-2010, 12:30   #107
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I was a bit amused as was my son when they boarded us yesterday. They were very nice and told us to just maintain or course and speed they weren't trying to inconvenience us. They had 900 horses worth of outboard! They chatted with us about the job and gave us a number to report any suspicious activity. That had me scratching my head. I figured any smugglers aren't too likely to look suspicious but who knows ... maybe bales of marjuana on the decks?
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Old 23-02-2010, 12:33   #108
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Naw -- they are using submarines now.
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Old 23-02-2010, 12:48   #109
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I might point out that if the local marine patrol comes up and asks to board your boat, regardless of how bad an idea saying no might sound, saying yes makes it all perfectly legal, you've invited them in.

And if you have made it clear that they are not invited, attempting to prevent them from coming aboard, whether or not you think it's legal, will probably break some laws (and generally a really bad idea).

And many other countries have granted all kinds of authority to US military and law enforcement agencies. I once met a US DEA agent in a bar in Bangkok who told me they were allowed to carry weapons and arrest people in Thailand. If that is true, do you really think they wouldn't allow the US Coast Guard to board your boat? If the US Coast Guard found something illegal, and handed you over to Thai Authorities, do you expect the 4th amendment to the US bill of rights to matter much? While they do have particularly good relations between Thailand and the US, I'm sure this is not a unique situation, and probably more common closer to home.

Back on the topic of the dude getting harassed in Miami. It might be perfectly legal for him to go about doing what he's doing according to Florida state law. But you won't win picking a fight with the police. If he returns his notice asking for a hearing and posts some response to that effect on his boat, he oughta be able to show up at the hearing and discuss the issues regarding Florida state law at the hearing. Trying to take that up with the police officer directly is never a great idea, maybe be polite and mention that you were informed otherwise and ask where to appeal it, but don't start arguing about it with him.

Them there police are just people too, if you piss them off, they might just take out there anger on you. They probably would rather be doing something other than keeping track of how long your boats anchored there, but it's all part of there job, unless their boss tells them otherwise. You can rant all you want about the rich folks pissed off about you being in there view of the water, but most police can't afford those condos, and probably have a similar opinion about the people complaining.

Going to the hearing is the easiest best place to begin discussing the differences in the local enforcement and state law, and while a lawyer would be helpful I doubt they can require you to have one (but they will require that you have some knowledge of what the laws are and be able to speak intelligently and in turn during the meeting if you don't bring a lawyer to do that for you).

You can, and many do, carry on about what the **law** is and what it **should** be all day long. But the cop probably isn't a lawyer (although, many commonly do have more formal legal training than most of us), and even the US Congress and Executive have written laws that were determined illegal by the supreme court in the past. So while you might win your fight against the system, be prepared to take a few lumps on the way.
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Old 23-02-2010, 13:06   #110
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Nice post
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Old 23-02-2010, 13:59   #111
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USCG boarding authority

For those who don't believe that the USCG has the authority to board any US flagged vessel anywhere, anytime, here is the real deal truth:

(see:United States Code: Browse Titles Page)

U.S.C. TITLE 14--COAST GUARD

PART I--REGULAR COAST GUARD

CHAPTER 5--FUNCTIONS AND POWERS


Sec. 89. Law enforcement

(a) The Coast Guard may make inquiries, examinations, inspections,
searches, seizures, and arrests upon the high seas and waters over which
the United States has jurisdiction, for the prevention, detection, and
suppression of violations of laws of the United States. For such
purposes, commissioned, warrant, and petty officers may at any time go
on board of any vessel subject to the jurisdiction, or to the operation
of any law, of the United States, address inquiries to those on board,
examine the ship's documents and papers, and examine, inspect, and
search the vessel and use all necessary force to compel compliance. When
from such inquiries, examination, inspection, or search it appears that
a breach of the laws of the United States rendering a person liable to
arrest is being, or has been committed, by any person, such person shall
be arrested or, if escaping to shore, shall be immediately pursued and
arrested on shore, or other lawful and appropriate action shall be
taken; or, if it shall appear that a breach of the laws of the United
States has been committed so as to render such vessel, or the
merchandise, or any part thereof, on board of, or brought into the
United States by, such vessel, liable to forfeiture, or so as to render
such vessel liable to a fine or penalty and if necessary to secure such
fine or penalty, such vessel or such merchandise, or both, shall be
seized.

Furthermore, if your vessel is a US Documented vessel, read the back of your document, where it states:
The original certificate must be kept aboard the vessel at all times when in operation and must be presented upon demand of federal, state or local officals for law enforcement purposes.

In most cases, the official who is demanding to see the document can also demand to board the vessel to inspect the permanently affixed official number, which precludes the idea that you can just hand him the paper over the rail.

US flagged boats are not vehicles, and they are not domiciles, they are vessels and are subject to boarding by the CG anytime, anywhere. BTW, all vessels registered in the US, whether they be state registered or federal documented are considered US flagged and fall under the jurisdiction of the USCG per the above code.
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:08   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
For those who don't believe that the USCG has the authority to board any US flagged vessel anywhere, anytime, here is the real deal truth:

(see:United States Code: Browse Titles Page)

U.S.C. TITLE 14--COAST GUARD

PART I--REGULAR COAST GUARD

CHAPTER 5--FUNCTIONS AND POWERS


Sec. 89. Law enforcement

(a) The Coast Guard may make inquiries, examinations, inspections,
searches, seizures, and arrests upon the high seas and waters over which
the United States has jurisdiction
, for the prevention, detection, and
suppression of violations of laws of the United States. For such
purposes, commissioned, warrant, and petty officers may at any time go
on board of any vessel subject to the jurisdiction, or to the operation
of any law, of the United States, address inquiries to those on board,
examine the ship's documents and papers, and examine, inspect, and
search the vessel and use all necessary force to compel compliance. When
from such inquiries, examination, inspection, or search it appears that
a breach of the laws of the United States rendering a person liable to
arrest is being, or has been committed, by any person, such person shall
be arrested or, if escaping to shore, shall be immediately pursued and
arrested on shore, or other lawful and appropriate action shall be
taken; or, if it shall appear that a breach of the laws of the United
States has been committed so as to render such vessel, or the
merchandise, or any part thereof, on board of, or brought into the
United States by, such vessel, liable to forfeiture, or so as to render
such vessel liable to a fine or penalty and if necessary to secure such
fine or penalty, such vessel or such merchandise, or both, shall be
seized.

Furthermore, if your vessel is a US Documented vessel, read the back of your document, where it states:
The original certificate must be kept aboard the vessel at all times when in operation and must be presented upon demand of federal, state or local officals for law enforcement purposes.

In most cases, the official who is demanding to see the document can also demand to board the vessel to inspect the permanently affixed official number, which precludes the idea that you can just hand him the paper over the rail.

US flagged boats are not vehicles, and they are not domiciles, they are vessels and are subject to boarding by the CG anytime, anywhere. BTW, all vessels registered in the US, whether they be state registered or federal documented are considered US flagged and fall under the jurisdiction of the USCG per the above code.
Doesn't this indicate limitation to US waters?
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:10   #113
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*upon the high seas and waters over which
the United States has jurisdiction*, WG
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:14   #114
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Which would mean permission to operate in...which doesn't leave out to many areas of the world.


I always liked a big brother...as long as hes mine..
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:28   #115
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Doesn't this indicate limitation to US waters?
No, it clearly says upon the high seas and ....

the high seas are defined elsewhere in the USC, but it basically means all international waters not legally claimed by other countries. Those waters of course end 12 miles offshore for said country. So, failing prior agreements with foreign countries, the coasties could just wait offshore for you.
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:36   #116
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I believe most, if not all, US Navy vessels have a US Coast Guard liason officer aboard, who can authorize Coast Guard activity with that vessel. So any US Navy ship can be a Coast Guard ship, too, just by "running up the flag."

Imaging the VHF radio call: "Sailing vessel Wavedancer, this is the US Coast Guard carrier Nimitz... please heave to and prepare to accept boarders..."

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Old 23-02-2010, 14:41   #117
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High Seas defined in CFRs

TITLE 33--NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS
CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

PART 2_JURISDICTION--Table of Contents

Subpart B_Jurisdictional Terms

Sec. 2.32 High seas.

(a) For purposes of special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of
the United States as defined in 18 U.S.C. 7, high seas means all waters
seaward of the territorial sea baseline.
(b) For the purposes of section 2 of the Act of February 19, 1895,
as amended (33 U.S.C. 151) and the Inland Navigational Rules Act of 1980
(33 U.S.C. Chapter 34), high seas means the waters seaward of any lines
established under these statutes, including the lines described in part
80 of this chapter and 46 CFR part 7.
(c) For the purposes of 14 U.S.C. 89(a), 14 U.S.C. 86, 33 U.S.C.
409, and 33 U.S.C. 1471 et seq., high seas includes the exclusive
economic zones of the United States and other nations, as well as those
waters that are seaward of territorial seas of the United States and
other nations.
(d) Under customary international law as reflected in the 1982
United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and without prejudice to
high seas freedoms that may be exercised within exclusive economic zones
pursuant to article 58 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of
the Sea, and unless the context clearly requires otherwise (e.g., The
International Convention Relating to Intervention on the High Seas in
Cases of Oil Pollution Casualties, 1969, including annexes thereto),
high seas means all waters that are not the exclusive economic zone (as
defined in Sec. 2.30), territorial sea (as defined in Sec. 2.22), or
internal waters of the United States or any other nation.

-- paragraph C above pretty much covers the earth.
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:47   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
In most cases, the official who is demanding to see the document can also demand to board the vessel to inspect the permanently affixed official number, which precludes the idea that you can just hand him the paper over the rail.
Fortunately in my case I can open a single hatch and the permanently affixed number is visible without anyone having to come on board.

Note that in the Bahamas the US Coast Guard has permission from the Bahamian government to be in their waters. They regularly board and inspect US vessels in Bahamian waters. While I have not been boarded there I have been "questioned" over the radio by the USCG. One nice thing about the USCG in Bahamian waters, in case of an emergency you are much more likely to be rescued by the USCG and a helicopter than the Bahamian Defense forces in one of their small patrol boats.
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Old 23-02-2010, 14:53   #119
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Fortunately in my case I can open a single hatch and the permanently affixed number is visible without anyone having to come on board.
aka the "just lean over the rail and you can see my numbers" defense.
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Old 23-02-2010, 15:01   #120
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Originally Posted by Kirok View Post
I believe most, if not all, US Navy vessels have a US Coast Guard liason officer aboard, who can authorize Coast Guard activity with that vessel. So any US Navy ship can be a Coast Guard ship, too, just by "running up the flag."

Imaging the VHF radio call: "Sailing vessel Wavedancer, this is the US Coast Guard carrier Nimitz... please heave to and prepare to accept boarders..."

OR this one..

Channel 16: Hey you! ...Ya! you!..that big grey boat! ..This is S/V XXXX Please wake up your CG Liason Officer...we need a tow....
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