All things COLREGS

[leftbrainstuff]

A friend who is active Coast Guard Auxillary made an interesting suggestion when manouevering in congested waters. Specifically when motoring but surrounded with the racing fanatics who insist on tacking and using up the while fairway. Declaring you have limited manoeuverability vocally negates those sailing from thinking they have the right of way.

Thoughts from the forum...

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by ozskipper

Even thats not quite right I believe. The "give way" vessel as you call it is actually the "burdened Vessel"

Careful!


The 1972 revision of COLREGs removed the terms 'burdened vessel' and 'privileged vessel'.


Those terms are deprecated.


And were replaced with 'stand on vessel' and 'give way vessel', though not necessarily in that order.


Al

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Declaring you have limited manoeuverability vocally negates those sailing from thinking they have the right of way.

Your friend has no comprehension of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.

There is no "limited manoeuverability" or "right of way" in the IRPCS.

Your status is demonstrated by day shapes (or lack thereof) or lights or sound signals in restricted visibility.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

A friend who is active Coast Guard Auxillary made an interesting suggestion when manouevering in congested waters. Specifically when motoring but surrounded with the racing fanatics who insist on tacking and using up the while fairway. Declaring you have limited manoeuverability vocally negates those sailing from thinking they have the right of way.

Thoughts from the forum...

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

The COLREGS use the definition (g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.


It has long been established that such restriction applies to a vessel out of the ordinary so restricted by the nature of what she has to do. , a dredger being a common example

A common ship under no unusal burden of work would be entirely incorrect to asset such restriction



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Well, you read it wrong, though I can see why you think it's 'overtaking'. But no, we were 'passing'. I was going up and he was coming down. Or if your a mainlander in Australia, then I was going down and he was coming up. Either way, we were 'passing'.

I'm still not following. You were on the right side of the channel and he was downbound on his right, you wanted to cross his bow for a starboard to starboard passing- so you sounded 5 short, then sounded two short to indicate you were crossing his bow, then met him stbd to stbd? Is this correct?

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I think I'll throw another wrinkle into this discussion. That is the difference between a course and a heading. When I learned navigation a course could consist of mutiple legs of different headings. Since the COLREGs require the stand on vessel to hold course, it would seem to cause a problem for the give way vessel if the stand on vessels "course" has a heading change planned. So do the COLREGs really expect the stand on vessel to hold heading and speed or course and speed?

Nope

Course and heading are differentiated by leeway and current.

Heading is the direction my boat is pointed.

Course is my track over the ground.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

A few years ago whilst coming up a river I approached a big private cabin cruiser and I couldn't see him taking any action to move to let me pass and as it was low tied I couldn't move any further over. So I have him the doubt sig on my air horn but got no answer. I still couldn't see any change so I gave him two squirts and moved over to Port where I had some water and as he passes me he yells out, 'what's the %^$^&# problem?' with his hands in the air. I yelled back, 'just saying hello', to which he calmed down and put his thumb up.

very common down here.

Sorry , you claimed you were passing. You determined you didn't have enough room , so in response you moved CLOSER to him , ??????????

Dave



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Signal flag, E to starboard I to port. Better than VHF,everyone to see even paddle boards. Every boat should have a watch who knows the regulations.

Teddy

You are completely correct in this observation. Unfortunately, as has been demonstratedon many other threads, very few (and I really do mean very few) boaters know what signal flags mean.

And fewer carry a set and are prepared to hoist them.

I carry them and am prepared to hoist them - but it would be a futile gesture since virtually no one on the water would have the faintest clue what they meant

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Teddy

You are completely correct in this observation. Unfortunately, as has been demonstratedon many other threads, very few (and I really do mean very few) boaters know what signal flags mean.

And fewer carry a set and are prepared to hoist them.

I carry them and am prepared to hoist them - but it would be a futile gesture since virtually no one on the water would have the faintest clue what they meant

You would be more likely to get their attention with semaphore.... it would be rather fun to watch a SUP try to reply....

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I have to interject ( after being banned from car driving on cf it seems ! ) , a vessel which should not be impeded confers an obligation on other craft , it confers no " right " on the constrained vessel. Should the vessel suspect that a collision may occur , it must change course and speed as best it can to avoid should collision

I have long argued the definition of impeding. Where one to take it at face value , one could never cross busy shipping lanes without breaking the COLREGS.

One can easily see the application obligations when crossing any busy TSS. Despite me being a yacht , one will regularly see ships in a TSS change course within the confines of the TSS to open CPAs as I cross the TSS. I am mindful of my obligation to not impede , they are mindful of the obligation to act to prevent possible collision.



I see no interpretation on this thread that changes the view of many that rights are not conferred by the COLREGS in any circumstances


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Despite my longstanding respect for Lodesman and his comprehensive knowledge of the COLREGS (Lodesman - you are much, much more knowledgeable than I), I have to agree with Dave.

As dockhead pointed out, there are several phases in a sailing situation.
1- determining if there is a potential collision situation
2- early avoidance of such situation
3- action must be taken to avoid a collision. (sailing and steering rules)

I would argue that despite the terms "burdened" and privileged" (now defunct), both boats actually become "burdened" with an obligation.

The give way vessel is burdened with the responsibility to "give way" and thereby avoid the collision.

The stand on vessel is also burdened with responsibility - the responsibilty to maintain course and speed.

My further argument is that whenever you are "burdened" with any responsibility, then your "rights" are infringed (to some greater or lesser degree).

So the so-called "right of way" even in Lodesman's definition (which I believe is so abstract as to not have an application in the real world), ceases to be a "right", since a right is something you can choose to utilize or not.

Once obligated by the rules to maintain course and speed -the stand on vessel no longer has a choice in the matter (until a collision is imminent where all bets are off). In other words - his "right" has been infringed upon.

The colregs seem to many to be difficult to grasp and complex. Like most other subjects, the more you study them (and participate in useful discussions such as this thread), the more they make sense.

When sailing in open, less trafficed waters, I'm just like other prudent sailors. If I see an approaching boat, I determine if there is going to be a close passing and change course or speed to avoid that, therefore the sailing and steering rules never come into play.

But Dockhead, I and others sail in waters where these early actions are not always feasible. There is simply way too much traffic and much of it will be close passings, simply due to the amount of traffic (and it gets much worse at night). Here in Øresund, between Denmark and Sweden, we have an additional complication. The straits are narrow enough that traffic lights on the shore play in. So sometimes you'll see a red light that you think is a boat, turn your head and when you turn back again, it is green

The wording "shall not impede" may infer a right of way, but it also infers an obligation. The "not to be impeded" vessel must also maintain course and speed - otherwise the give way vessel is hopelessly lost in its attempt to give way.


Very interesting discussion and I have some points that I will take away with me for further consideration.

Thank you

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You would be more likely to get their attention with semaphore.... it would be rather fun to watch a SUP try to reply....

Ah yes - but they do have a paddle and can semaphore with that

On the other hand - are they carrying navigational tools as required by laws in many countries? Paper charts? EDCIS? Chartplotters?

Are they taking soundings to ensure they do not run aground? Do they have and are showing the proper navigational lights?

Seeing some of the newbie SUP'ers around here - they should be showing the NUC shapes/lights

yes the world is going to hell in a handbasket

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Since the ships are in a restricting channel (a narrow strait), my 35-foot vessel is the burdened vessel here. In the photo, the black tanker is heading east, approaching the northern bridge span (my destination is beyond the bridge to the right), while the red bulk carrier is being rotated 180 degrees by the tugs just after leaving the C&H sugar plant to head it west and pass under the southern span.


Thanks to monitoring USCG traffic control (VHF channel 14) today, I had advance notice of upcoming traffic. First caught sight of the tanker and the tugs pulling the bulk carrier away from the dock while I was heading west on the southern side of the strait . Not wanting to cross the strait and in front of the tanker, elected to head for the strait's middle to pass the tanker behind its stern. While passing under the northern span, the bulk carrier paralleled me under the southern span.

That is one case where common sense would prevail, without having some sealawyer delving into the finer points of whatever.....and no real need to worry about stand on give way impede right of way or what's on for breakfast.

About 10 years ago north bound in Sunda Strait, daylight, afternoon 12 to 4...
Maintaining a watching brief in the wheelhouse, lotsa water, no south bound ships.
Two ships about a point or so on the port bow, steady bearings....
Sat and watched... asked to 2/0... ' watcha gunna do' ?
'oh stand on.....'
'OK I'll take the con'... altered about 10 degrees to port at about 5 miles and passed astern of them.
2/0 'but but...'
They were 40,000 tonne ( mas o menos) coal ships slow steaming ( 5 knots... we were doing 20) and a few miles of the Merak pilot boarding ground.....they couldn't get out of their own way ...let alone ours
The 2/0 was still banging on about it days later and quoting rules and *****... common sense is an uncommon virtue.

He stuffed up again a month or so later and my relief sacked him... probably working in a school of nav somewhere these days.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Teddy

You are completely correct in this observation. Unfortunately, as has been demonstratedon many other threads, very few (and I really do mean very few) boaters know what signal flags mean.

And fewer carry a set and are prepared to hoist them.

I carry them and am prepared to hoist them - but it would be a futile gesture since virtually no one on the water would have the faintest clue what they meant

So true unfortunately..
Maybe"we" should do figure eights inside the breakwater time to time with signaling our manouvers just to educate others
Wonder how many knows gin pennant?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by carstenb

. . . .

The wording "shall not impede" may infer a right of way, but it also infers an obligation. The "not to be impeded" vessel must also maintain course and speed - otherwise the give way vessel is hopelessly lost in its attempt to give way.
. . .

The "not to be impeded" vessel has no obligation to stand on. I think the key to understanding this, is to keep in mind that "not impeding" is very different from "giving way", and occurs at a different phase of an encounter.

It's confusing, and I think it's a badly constructed part of the COLREGS, but there are some clues, added in a later edition of the Rules to try to clear up the confusion:


8(e)(i). A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea-room for the safe passage of the other vessel.

(ii). A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this part.

(iii). A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.




So "not impeding" takes place before the steering and sailing rules come into effect -- before a risk of collision (or vessels getting within sight of one another) arises.

Basically, it mean you have to wait for the coast to be clear before crossing the TSS. The vessel "not to be impeded" does not stand-on, because you never get to that phase. Ideally, he never even notices you.

The test of whether you have fulfilled this requirement or not is whether the "not to be impeded" vessel had to alter course or not. If you got into a steering & sailing rules situation where someone had to give way and someone had to stand on, then you failed to "not impede" -- that's Lodesman's interpretation, as I recall, and I haven't heard a more convincing one.

Once you get to steering and sailing rules, the "not to be impeded" vessel may at the very same time become the give-way vessel -- which seems like a paradox (which bothered me no end when we first started discussing this). The amendments to the Rules clearly say this, though -- "A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision." And yet the obligation of the now stand-on vessel to "not impede" also stays in effect -- "A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this part."

It means you might be required to "not impede" and also to stand-on at the very same time -- quite a trick, eh? I resolve the apparent paradox like this -- standing-on and giving-way is just an order of maneuver to resolve a potential collision, notwithstanding words like "keep out of the way of", which do appear in the steering & sailing rules. So who maneuvers how and when has nothing to do with who is obligated to "not impede". If you are a sailboat obligated to "not impede", and you get into a steering and sailing rules situation with a vessel which is "not to be impeded", then you do your standing on and giving way as usual under the steering and sailing rules, but all the while you are still doing your best to do them in a way which avoids, to the extent possible, impeding the other vessel. I guess that means -- stand on for the minimum time required, try to put your boat in the place which causes the least disruption to the course of the other vessel, within the requirements of the Rules, however.




Dave will know how hard it is to fulfill "not impeding" in the Dover Straits, with ships lined up a couple of miles apart all the way to the horizon.

What I do is put on as much speed as I can and aim to pass close behind one vessel in the line.

If I can't pass at least a mile ahead of the next vessel in line, I don't go. And a mile is really pushing it. If the traffic is that dense, then the best thing to do is usually join the flow, and scoot over just behind one ship when you see a decent gap. That's what was advised to me by an English Channel ship captain. Not always possible when you're under sail.

I hate to pass less than three miles ahead of a fast moving ship and only do it when there's no other way. In such cases, I will usually violate the MCA recommendation about not using the VHF, and call the bridge of the ship I'm going to pass ahead of, so that they know I will be darting out ahead of them and nobody freaks out.

[goboatingnow]

I don't want to rehash our previous extensive discussion on impeding and I aggressively with what you say in general Dockhead

To me if I am in a TSS and ships against course I do not beleive I am impeding then unless I put them in a less safe position then before the change of their course ( or speed)

All of that is outside the steering rules because the risk of collision can reasonably be determined not to exist. Ships are merely giving me some sea room out of courtesy ( or fear ! )

I would regard that I impeded a vessel if my presence caused it to change course or speed such that as a result it ended up in a less safe position.

Again nothing in these rules provides for a ship to steam anywhere without regard to others.

Dave