Wheel vs tiller advice

[Hope123]

Although it is your decision but regarding me, i would also consider this a bad idea.

[Searles]

A good idea to try the emergency tiller ,probably quite usable in most conditions ,now in smooth water with plenty of room try handling the vsl in astern with a bit of power ,even a big wheel can take over in astern ,.⚓️😘

[Hope123]

you should consider hiring a professional.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by psk125

Me too. A tiller long enough to work will put the helmsperson exactly where the jib and spinnaker trimmers need to be. Sheet tails may be liable to tangle around the end of the tiller. You will also need to install compasses P&S, and correct them, so you can identify headers and lifts, since the binnacle compass will be removed. Sail trimmers will block your view of the compasses and other instruments. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Do we know that the original poster wishes to race the boat? If so, then I guess your points are valid. However, most of them would not be of a concern I don't think for, for example, a cruising couple.

Scorpius has a big barn door rudder hung off the transom with a tiller to control it. When not in use, including when using autopilot, which is about 95% of the time, the tiller is folded up and completely out of the way, completely clearing the cockpit. There is a binnacle on the bridge deck with the navigation instruments, shelving, stereo, etc. It is convenient, unobtrusive and out of the way - far less than if there were a wheel attached.

The system is simple, and every part of it is visible and accessible at all times. I like it and wouldn't have it any other way.

[TrentePieds]

Chistos:

Pete7 asked you what you mean by "squeeze".

I note that your first language is not English. Did you by any chance mean "pinch" rather than "squeeze"? "To pinch" is an expression some of us use for trying to sail closer to the wind than the boat's really wants to under the given conditions.

The design (the "lines") of your boat is such that if you let her heel very far at all, she will turn to weather and eventually gripe. "Gripe" means to turn to weather suddenly and out of control. That's implicit in her lines and cannot be altered. You feel this tendency far more in a tiller steered boat than in a wheel steered boat. I myself LIKE the warning the tiller gives you when you heel the boat too far by not having minded your sail trim. You don't get nearly so emphatic a warning of the "pinching" in a wheel steered boat.

Another feature of your boat's basic design is that it encourages you to carry more headsail than a cruising man would or should. That conduces to heeling, and therefore to "pinching". If you have a tiller, carry just enough headsail to develop the required drive, but only so much that the tiller's tendency to swing to leeward can be checked by light pressure of two fingers on the leeward side of the tiller.

Obviously, you should, ideally, carry that same area of sail if the boat is wheel steered. But the wheel will not give you the "early warning" the tiller does.

Cheers

TrentePieds

[JBP]

My recommendation would be to remove the wheel, but save all the pieces. Try the tiller for a while and decide for yourself which you like better. If you like the wheel, put it back in. Nothing lost plus you'll probably find where you're wheel is binding in the process.

[christos]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Chistos:

Pete7 asked you what you mean by "squeeze".

I note that your first language is not English. Did you by any chance mean "pinch" rather than "squeeze"? "To pinch" is an expression some of us use for trying to sail closer to the wind than the boat's really wants to under the given conditions.

The design (the "lines") of your boat is such that if you let her heel very far at all, she will turn to weather and eventually gripe. "Gripe" means to turn to weather suddenly and out of control. That's implicit in her lines and cannot be altered. You feel this tendency far more in a tiller steered boat than in a wheel steered boat. I myself LIKE the warning the tiller gives you when you heel the boat too far by not having minded your sail trim. You don't get nearly so emphatic a warning of the "pinching" in a wheel steered boat.

Another feature of your boat's basic design is that it encourages you to carry more headsail than a cruising man would or should. That conduces to heeling, and therefore to "pinching". If you have a tiller, carry just enough headsail to develop the required drive, but only so much that the tiller's tendency to swing to leeward can be checked by light pressure of two fingers on the leeward side of the tiller.

Obviously, you should, ideally, carry that same area of sail if the boat is wheel steered. But the wheel will not give you the "early warning" the tiller does.

Cheers

TrentePieds

Wrong expression, ...I mean squeak , not squeeze

[christos]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Do we know that the original poster wishes to race the boat? If so, then I guess your points are valid. However, most of them would not be of a concern I don't think for, for example, a cruising couple.

Scorpius has a big barn door rudder hung off the transom with a tiller to control it. When not in use, including when using autopilot, which is about 95% of the time, the tiller is folded up and completely out of the way, completely clearing the cockpit. There is a binnacle on the bridge deck with the navigation instruments, shelving, stereo, etc. It is convenient, unobtrusive and out of the way - far less than if there were a wheel attached.

The system is simple, and every part of it is visible and accessible at all times. I like it and wouldn't have it any other way.

Exactly, I don't want to race the boat, I'm sailing with my wife , or alone and 90% of the time I'm using autopilot.

[Bowdrie]

In a broad sense I prefer wheels but depending upon the apparatus involved I find some wheel steering systems better than others, a claim that most of us probably can relate to.
Tillers don't "have" to be hard on your body.
Easy steering with a tiller comes from good hull/rig design that has good balance and well-set sails.
This boat is a good example of a nice comfortable yacht for day-sailing/racing and perhaps limited cruising.
Of course, she is well balanced, requiring only an easy hand on the tiller, (note the top middle picture in the link).
The well-heeled gentleman clients of Herreshoff would not want to exert themselves unduly.
https://mitena.webflow.io/

[Kettlewell]

Tillers don't "have" to be hard on your body.
Easy steering with a tiller comes from good hull/rig design that has good balance and well-set sails.

^^This^^I've had some tiller steered boats like that where they were very easy to steer, assuming you had the sails trimmed right. But, bottom line for me is to go with whatever the designer originally called for. Some boats are designed from the get-go for a wheel--stick with that.

[gulfislandfred]

I'm too cheap and lazy to change a system that works with no issues. I've had tillers and wheels on boats up to 41 feet. I was happy with both types. Each has advantages and disadvantages.


If you have both systems in place, with the emergency tiller system set up, make yourself a nice tiller, that fits on the rudder head, set up the cables or chains on the quadrant to connect/disconnect easily, and try the tiller for a while. I assume that your steering system is not hydraulic?


My experience is that autopilot is much cheaper and easier to add to a tiller than to a wheel.



Until you try the tiller in a big following sea, and bashing to windward in over 25 knots of breeze, you haven't answered your question.
It's a valid question, and you have the equipment to test it easily.


Or you can set things up to go back and forth from tiller to wheel, as the mood strikes you. Why not?

[sailingharry]

I'd caution against the theory that OP should save the parts, as it's easy to reinstall and so no harm/no foul. To move to a tiller, OP will have to relocate/reinstall, including drilling holes (and buying new cables/controls/etc) the compass (or buy/install one or two new ones), the engine controls, and if installed the chartplotter. Also, if installed and desired, the cockpit table.


Autopilots on tilers scare me a little. I have no experience (other than a very little bit with the functional but frustrating tiller pilot type), but I have to wonder what risk there is with the tiller swinging around under power? The wheel is a risk as well, but much more constrained. Also, unless OP has an underdeck pilot (his boat length is right on the normal edge between wheel pilot and underdeck pilot), it requires an entire new actuator. On my boat, I use the AP a LOT, sometimes even for a few seconds at a time, and I really enjoy the ability to simply push a button, step forward and handle something, step back, and disengage -- this can be done on a tiller but maybe not as easily. Also, with a wheel, since you are "standing at the wheel" the AP controls are always within reach -- with a tiller, maybe not so much.



OP says it's just him and his wife, usually. I still think even with that few number of people, the cockpit sweeping tiller would be unpleasant. I suspect a tiller on a boat that size would be 5-6 feet long (from boats I've seen, I think the upthread suggestion of 2X rudder chord is about 50% low -- I suspect it's closer to 3x -- but you'd have to try and find some tiller boats to compare. Very few boats these days use tillers, so that's not an easy suggestion). And interfering with jib and spin winches is a concern even on a cruising boat -- at least on ours, we tack and fly a spinnaker.

[christos]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I'd caution against the theory that OP should save the parts, as it's easy to reinstall and so no harm/no foul. To move to a tiller, OP will have to relocate/reinstall, including drilling holes (and buying new cables/controls/etc) the compass (or buy/install one or two new ones), the engine controls, and if installed the chartplotter. Also, if installed and desired, the cockpit table.


Autopilots on tilers scare me a little. I have no experience (other than a very little bit with the functional but frustrating tiller pilot type), but I have to wonder what risk there is with the tiller swinging around under power? The wheel is a risk as well, but much more constrained. Also, unless OP has an underdeck pilot (his boat length is right on the normal edge between wheel pilot and underdeck pilot), it requires an entire new actuator. On my boat, I use the AP a LOT, sometimes even for a few seconds at a time, and I really enjoy the ability to simply push a button, step forward and handle something, step back, and disengage -- this can be done on a tiller but maybe not as easily. Also, with a wheel, since you are "standing at the wheel" the AP controls are always within reach -- with a tiller, maybe not so much.



OP says it's just him and his wife, usually. I still think even with that few number of people, the cockpit sweeping tiller would be unpleasant. I suspect a tiller on a boat that size would be 5-6 feet long (from boats I've seen, I think the upthread suggestion of 2X rudder chord is about 50% low -- I suspect it's closer to 3x -- but you'd have to try and find some tiller boats to compare. Very few boats these days use tillers, so that's not an easy suggestion). And interfering with jib and spin winches is a concern even on a cruising boat -- at least on ours, we tack and fly a spinnaker.

I have an underdeck Raymarine autopilot and my intention is not to change for a tiller pilot. I think that I can remove only the cables and the wheel, make a nice tiller and everything is going to work properly with underdeck autopilot.

[smacksman]

All Essex fishing smacks have tillers. Some smacks built as yachts had wheels but then yachties could afford the extra cost. My Alberta CK318 (Class 2 smack) weighed in at about 17 tons and set 1000 sq. ft. of working canvas on a 65 ft sail base (44ft. on deck + 21ft. bowsprit) as seen in my avatar. When the weather got frisky a whip on the tiller coped with excess weather helm till the sails could be balanced. Class 1 smacks at 50 to 70 ft. on deck still had tillers. Some smacks with engines have to take care going astern when the rudder can slam to the side. Other than that, a tiller can't go wrong; it can be unshipped or hinged up to clear deck space; easily replaced. I had wheel steering retro fitted by a PO on my 30 ft Bristol and it was daft and in the way. Much better to have kept the original tiller.

[Morris Wilson]

My last boat was tiller steered and I liked the quick and positive response when the boat was rocking in small waves but I also like the wheel steering on the boat I have now because I can let go of the wheel for a few seconds at a time to do minor chores while the tiller is full time hands on and must be tied if you are not holding it. I would say it depends on what you mostly do with your boat.