Water in Bilge Coming from Keel, or ?

[osirissail]

If the boat is a molded one piece hull and keel, then rather than drilling from the bottom do this. Internally locate the positioning of the ballast and then core drill into the side of the keel about 1/3 of the way from bottom of the keel to the estimated top of the ballast. You want to determine two things - if there is water trapped in the ballast cavity and how thick the exterior hull is over the ballast.
- - Trying to drill vertically up through the bottom of the keel is not advisable as normally the bottom of the keel cavity is filled with up to 6 inches of thick resin that drained down as the hull-keel was laid up. Drilling in from the side allows you to see exactly what the ballast is made of. Whether it is iron, lead or concrete. The older boats had their ballast areas filled with scrap iron with poured concrete of the top. Specifically they would put all the scrap iron around the plant into the cavity and then pour ready-mix concrete until the cavity was filled. Some manufacturers used a mixture of poured readi-mix and lead shot or iron shot to fill the cavity.
- - It is a good idea if there is water trapped in the ballast cavity to get it all out and dry inside. The water trapped inside will promote delamination blisters in the keel sides and eventually weaken the keel to the point that it will fail or collapse. I saw one boat in the boatyard I was working in collapse over its keel when in jackstands because the keel sides were virtually all delaminated due to blisters. The "Inspection" holes drilled in the side will allow good examination of the problem and are easily repaired with the core circles from the core drill.

[Cheechako]

I think you may be over worrying. But while you are drilliing... drill a hole in the rudder, you will undoubtably find water there too. If you do drill the keel, I agree the very bottom may not tell you much. Just try some 1/4" holes first maybe 6" from bottom and if dry... move up. Take a good look at what comes out, dry? wet? how wet? how thick is the hull? etc. If you really have water between your ballast and the hull, you will never dry it out... just cant be done from a practical standpoint. It's too moist and humid with no place for air to circulate. Injecting epoxy will just be a waste of money. I once saw a 44 foot cored hull in a boat yard and watched the repair process on this boat for a month and a half. The core was mostly above the waterline but was delaminated from the hull in spots, so the "fix" was to drill about 500 3/8" diameter holes in the hull and topsides. Then inject resin under pressure from the bottom holes until it flowed out the top holes. To make a long story short, after all this they discovered some thru hulls had leaked into the core on one side at the waterline. They cut about a 1 ft by 16 ft part of the hull away on that side. The epoxy that was injected in that area was a real mess.... milky white, semi hard in spots due to the water etc. It turned out that the hull was as thick as any Non-cored hull, then had a core and then had an inner layer. Basically, he could have left the boat as it was (except removing the water infiltrated area) and not worried that the core had not "stuck" to the hull in a lot of the areas. Are you over worrying this??? make sure.....

[Delaminated]

I second that Cheechako, injecting wet balsa end grain mulch don't work. Injecting any kind of resin will not displace water. We are not talking about bonding anything, we are talking air void filling attempts after drying attempts. Any yard that states they can 100% fix de-bonded core by injecting spends more time in court than fixing boats.

It's clearly going to be a process of discovery for Geoff. He's had and paid for many of the common problems found on far east boats. This is not a little Frisco Flier that you can patch and pray. And when then keel delams out, strip her to pay for the chain saw and dumpster fees. He's got big bucks in this boat and hopes to keep it in the inventory for ten years plus.

As Osiris observed if that stink keel juice is left to osmoticly ferment, one day he will be faced with keel blisters the size of hub caps and a survey stating " port risk ashore only, structural unseaworthy hull". I know I would have insomnia if It was my boat and hell yes I would be worried. It is not going away,he's not making it up and statistics sugest if he blows it off he will have some splanin ta do after he kicks himself in the ass down the road. This is a problem you want to be proactive about and after discovery he may need to get medieval with it. Wish you luck Geoff, hope you get all dry holes. After a couple days ashore check the hull rudder fittings for moisture.

[Cheechako]

well... I hear ya.... I guess a few test holes will tell the tale.... i'm just reluctant to believe there is a fix without cutting the whole keel off! and if there is 1.5 inches of glass down there...... well I guess decisions have to be made.. Any common bilge is wet and steamy most of the life of the boat... is this any different than a little moisture between the ballast and the glass....? maybe somewhat... there is circulation,,,, but the glass stays pretty wet.. I just hate to see someone go too far out of fear.... will the boat actually be better, stronger after coring and cutting? As said above, many commercial north pacific boats were built with iron cement ballast that had no glass layer encapsualting it...... and those boats work very hard and carry a lot of load.... How often have we seen larger more abundant blisters where the deep bilge is on a boat?

[Delaminated]

Cheechako, remember we are dealing with chinese gp resin, all quality control bets are off. I have not seen stink keel on a US built boat. Bring a 55gal drum of that far east stuff into the laminating shop at Westport and they will crack the barrel and pronounce it fit to build the flower pots in the lobby only.

The only concern w/US boats w/wet keels is freeze expansion trama that puts stress on the sides and deforms the shape. Here in Annapolis and the NE we go through many freeze/thaw cycles.Most boats are hauled during winter layup and do not sit in the warm water.

Will the boat actually be better, stronger da no. He is trying to preserve what he's got.A seaworthy boat.

[Geoff H.]

Well here's another update and another big thanks for you guys caring enough about another mariner to spend your time thinking about all of this. Wish I'd had this kind of thoughtful input over the last 9 yrs because I've indeed had to solve a lot of problems. Update: that rain the other day (pretty rare here) has been quite telling. Found a fair amount of fresh water running from under the little forepeak area, (likely through the samson posts caulking, hauser fittings; note: boat came with teak here and at the aft cockpit, and I relaid the cockpit a few yrs a go but never did this area - absolutely going to now). Anyway, water ran back, sure enough settling in and around the sump box area. I dried it up, and the next day with dry weather and a dry bilge, I laid out some dry barrier towels (those synthetic micro super absorb things) in a couple of strategic areas. The next morning one of the towels was wet!! Traced a tiny tiny trickle to the pressure valve on the Isotherm Hot Water Heater - the trickle ran hidden along the stringer, dropping down right at the sump box behind a loom of wiring. Importantly, the barrier towel was wet, and the sump box was dry.
So here is what I'm thinking: the shipwright guy in my yard is probably right. The water that has been showing up in my bilge and stinking it up, has been standing water built up over time (some from fwd as he originally suspected, and some from the hot water heater, all found it's way around and through the weak areas at the sump box, and that unsealed screw that held the bilge pump switch, which is above and adjacent to the sump box, and this water has been building up there in some voids in the laminates for years. When I pulled that screw that clear, but resin-smelling water gurgling out allowed what had built up below the surface to flow. This is consistent with what I've witnessed when hauling the boat; a very minor blister job over 5 yrs ago (small blisters almost entirely high on the hull) with no recurrence since.
That being said, when hauling next I plan on doing a little further exploration: I like the idea of drilling out a 1/4" hole above the ballast and see what comes out. And in the meantime I need to rebuild the forpeak deck (looking at Plasteak,)and reseal everything there, and figure out what the heck with the hot water heater pressure valve, which I replaced (because it leaked) a couple of years ago. Meanwhile I've turned down the temp (again) and I've attached a temporary water catch cup.

[s/v Jedi]

That pressure valve probably isn't leaking but doing it's job. As you heat water, it expands and the valve relieves that by letting out a bit of water. Connect a hose into a small plastic container and see what happens. Maybe it evaporates quickly enough.

cheers,
Nick.

[Geoff H.]

god i love this forum. really. i'm a new addict. can't stop reading. better than porn.

thanks nick, was hoping someone would pick up on this part of the thread. i have a small cup hanging under the valve now; if that works/prevents water from making it's way around my bilge, i'll fashion something more lasting.
best,
geoff

[James S]

Originally Posted by Geoff H.

god i love this forum. really. i'm a new addict. can't stop reading. better than porn.

Lets not let getting caught up in the moment effect our sense of reason

[Cheechako]

I'm having trouble understanding the playout entirely... but that water from the heater going to the bilge should nto be an issue...? That's what bilges are for. If the water cant flow maybe consider remving what is in it's path or creating a limber.....

[Geoff H.]

Cheech,
Agreed. Just asking if it's possible that with a improperly sealed screw hole right in the path of two streams of water, this might be the cause of water running down into a cavity that seems to exist exactly there?

[Geoff H.]

quite funny. thanks for making me smile. and for those awesome quotes. especially like the one about value of observation vs conclusions. quoted it today at work.

[osirissail]

Capn Ron is a classic boaters movie - totally unrealistic but pure fun. Except for the part at the end where Capn Ron docks the boat at 6 kts. That's how I have to do it with a 60 footer and no bow thruster as a single hander. And I have had people on the dock running just like in the movie. Rent the movie, so you will be "in the know" on the jokes/references."

[Cheechako]

Yea, I love that scene. Done it many times as I like to come in "hot" .... at least with a big boat. Fortunately, I've been lucky to end up like Capt Ron on most of them. The mess in the pants is another thing entirely...