Keel bolts... is this the end?

[senormechanico]

I agree with Jim.
It's like expecting your boat to still be at the dock after a big blow when the dock cleats were lag bolted, and the dock was rotten wood.

I've owned several fast powerboats, none of which had ballast.

Our first sailboat (LN35) had an encapsulated keel and our Dragonfly has a centerboard, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[motion30]

I know nothing about sailboat Keels or lag bolt fasteners but my question is can it lead kill like this being capsulated in fiberglass and glass to the boat? It seems like this could be a successful recourse

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous
ˌsaNG(k)təˈmōnēəs/
adjectivederogatory

adjective: sanctimonious
making a show of being morally superior to other people.

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

This talk of 'lag screws', regardless of their composition, seems singularly irresponsible.

... Is it ok if we go back to talking about whatever we want, or do you have more opinions on what responsible people should and should not talk about?

[foufou]

How about straps up the side of the keel, bolted across the keel. If there is a fiberglass stub, continuing up the side of the stub and bolted through the stub. You've would want to run some numbers on the straps but a starting point would be same amount of metal as the bolts. The wider stance would reduce the loads. Could all be faired in with clam and glass. Just a thought outside the box. Good luck

[foufou]

Meant foam and glass. Not clam

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by motion30

I know nothing about sailboat Keels or lag bolt fasteners but my question is can it lead kill like this being capsulated in fiberglass and glass to the boat? It seems like this could be a successful recourse

Unfortunately no. There's no way short of building up a whole new shell of a boat around your existing one that you'd end up with enough structure to hold that new keel.

You need to either replace your current fasteners or sister new ones in alongside.

I'm not sure why dropping the keel is a necessity for this, but I trust the folks saying so have good reasons for it.

Verify your existing bolts actually are J bolts and not through-bolts, though. What you have will impact what you do.

[Motown]

Originally Posted by billknny

You might think so... but this is someone who sailed to the Bahamas from VA in a 35 year old boat to be "surprised" by keel bolts so rotten they fell off when tapped. My wild guess is they were not bright and shiny before the gulf stream crossing, but were "out of sight/out of mind."

Do you think the rig is up to snuff? and the chainplates? How about a compression test on the engine?

As for the lag bolts, they are a good method well documented and accepted for repairing the keels on small boats. BUT--- They are really hard to do well. for lots of reasons. They are a less expensive option than some other ways of doing it, but the average boat-owner shouldn't consider them a DIY project by any means without input from someone who really know how to do it.

• Just drilling a very deep hole in lead is hard. Doing it with a hand drill and bits from your local hardware store is likely to be...very frustrating!
• The diameter of the hole has to be exactly right for the bolts used. Too big and there will be corrosion and poor strength, too small, and the bolt will gaul and seize part way in.
• I understand when someone suggest using bronze lag bolts for corrosion resistance. It sounds like a good idea... BUT... you have to be SURE the bonze bolt can take the torque needed to form the threads in the lead without breaking.
• The lag bolt has to be LONG.
• You have to lubricate it with the RIGHT stuff to get all the way in.
• There is a limit to the size (both length and diameter) lag bolt you can install in lead with "normal" tools. Torques are really high.
• I have seen it done successfully in boats up to 30 feet or so, but ALWAYS after dropping the keel for proper rebedding and inspection of the keel stub. I have done this myself on two Olsen 25s. I don't know how big a boat is "too big" for this approach.
• The idea of just drilling a couple holes and throwing in lag bolts as a stopgap is I agree, dangerously NOT the right answer.
• When ever I re-torque a keel bolt, I consider it a serious problem if the nut turns, even a little. That mean something has moved, crushed or stretched that absolutely should NEVER move, crush, or stretch. When you re-torque lag bolts in lead you are looking for the same thing. If the bolt head turns, that means the bolt has corroded and lost strength, and you are going to be dropping the keel... to be rebedded correctly this time.

You've hit the nail right on the head, im inexperienced. I expected problems, prepared myself, but how much is wrong with this boat that I'm completely unaware of.
I called Catalina, we laughed about the idea of using lagbolts, it would be irresponsible to the point of insanity.
Called a guy in RI that owns the oday molds, "holy **** man, thats a lot of work.. here's a number for a keel foundry"
Called the baddest sailor I know and he tells me I'd end up with a bay sailer if I fixed it myself.

the only question that matters- do I sail my boat back to the states or is the possibility of a catstrophic failure too great to risk it

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Motown

I called Catalina, we laughed about the idea of using lagbolts, it would be irresponsible to the point of insanity.

Did you now?

https://www.catalinadirect.com/index...-lead-keel.cfm

(Side note - the first time I saw that kit I laughed out loud about what a hack it was. But still, an interesting option, perhaps, if designed appropriately.)

Me? I think taking the trip you did without even knowing how your boat was put together, let alone the condition of the fasteners, is irresponsible to the point of insanity.

[Terra Nova]

Now at least you've learned the value of a good pre-purchase hull survey.

Find a competent yard to do the repairs.

[JOHNMARDALL]

Disclaimer: I have never done what I'm about to suggest, but have thought about it often, for boat where the keel bolts were inaccessible or immovable.

1. Sand the hull to raw fiberglass two feet back back from the keel-hull joint.
2. Sand the keel to remove all lumps and bumps
3. Using vinylester or epoxy resin and fiberglass combination cloth/mat encapsulate the keel and take the lamination back onto the hull two feet. Build up the lamination to the same thickness as the hull and fair the step between the existing hull and the new lamination.
4. Fair all of the new fiberglass
5. Apply barrier coat to the new fiberglass in accordance with the paint manufacturer's directions
6, Apply bottom paint, launch, sail away. Dive and inspect new fiberglass as frequently as possible to look for any defects.
7. If in doubt, through bolt (bronze) the hull-new fiberglass and the keel new fiberglass. Blister fair the nuts and bolt heads.

What do you say, cruising brains-trust? No personal remarks, please.

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

...What do you say, cruising brains-trust?...

Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing.

[Pauls]

I'd like to give the OP some practical advice. I've done a lot of this stuff so this is NOT theoretical.
1. Lead is very soft. It is easy to drill. You want to use plenty of oil while drilling to keep the chips from jamming up in the drill.
2. If you need to drill deep holes you can use long wood drilling bits like those shown in the video earlier. You can also buy a long metal drill bit. If you have to you can weld a steel rod onto the end of a regular length steel drill bit. These all work.
3. If your keel has J bolts you will never remove them. So you will need to drill new holes thru the fiberglass and down into the lead. Do this before you drop the keel (for rebidding).
4. Either thru bolts, as recommended, or cross holes and nuts as recommended, will work fine.
5. If you can make a drilling jig to hold the drill straight and aligned while you drill it will go a long way to ensuring your holes are accurate. You can make this out of a block of wood, they are very helpful.

This repair job is not a big deal. If you are reasonably competent it is a good DIY project. It is also not expensive. A drill or two, some bronze bolts and some bedding compound. Don't make a big deal out of something which is not.

And finally, learn the lesson that inspecting your boat in detail and fixing what needs fixing BEFORE IT BREAKS is a big deal. It will probably save you a great deal of money and might save your life.

[Motown]

Originally Posted by chris95040

Did you now?

https://www.catalinadirect.com/index...-lead-keel.cfm

(Side note - the first time I saw that kit I laughed out loud about what a hack it was. But still, an interesting option, perhaps, if designed appropriately.)

Me? I think taking the trip you did without even knowing how your boat was put together, let alone the condition of the fasteners, is irresponsible to the point of insanity.

Not here for your judgment homie. Here for your advice pertaining to keels and keel bolts, you go ahead and stow your opinions on anything else.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Motown

Not here for your judgment homie. Here for your advice pertaining to keels and keel bolts, you go ahead and stow your opinions on anything else.

Ditto, homie, but since you missed the joke I'll explain it: I used your exact words back at you.

[coastalexplorer]

I thought that the Catalina lag bolt link was potentially interesting so I opened it to read. I now from that site copy and paste the following....

Special 10" long, 1/2" diameter lag bolts are electro-polished type 316 stainless steel for longer life. Includes extra long 18" drill bit.

Important safety message: It is critical you understand that the retrofit lag bolts will not be as strong as the original bolts once were. The original bolts were first bent in a "J" shape, then cast into the molten lead. Don't expect to add this kit to your boat, then sail it to the Bahamas! If the original keel bolts are degraded, the boat is not and will not be as seaworthy as it once was.

Ironic don't you think that since the vessel is in the Bahamas? sailing it back could logically be considered essentially what the instructions tell one not to do...but in the reverse direction?...So not worth considering or arguing over?