Keel bolts... is this the end?

[Motown]

First boat, been though a lot learning exactly what the hell sailing is all about.. got the 1982 39' o'day from Norfolk to rock harbor eleuthra Bahamas and found that two keel bolts were so corroded that I was able to knock em over with a ball peen hammer, the chips in the new bottom paint around the keel tipped me off to start tapping around the bilge, and eventually led me to the bad news.

Lead keel, so j bolts, found the company in Rhode Island that'll replace each bolt for about $700.. lookin at four minimum I'd say. I wouldn't be surprised if this fix started getting close to $10k with the haul out, storage fee, keel removal, shipping, bolts replaced, keel rebed..

Tell you what guys, Im damn close to packin' my bags and shipping them back to the states, get some work and find another boat in a year or two.

Any and all advice, fixed a lot of things recently but this one got me outta left field not really sure what to do.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Motown

First boat, been though a lot learning exactly what the hell sailing is all about.. got the 1982 39' o'day from Norfolk to rock harbor eleuthra Bahamas and found that two keel bolts were so corroded that I was able to knock em over with a ball peen hammer, the chips in the new bottom paint around the keel tipped me off to start tapping around the bilge, and eventually led me to the bad news.

Lead keel, so j bolts, found the company in Rhode Island that'll replace each bolt for about $700.. lookin at four minimum I'd say. I wouldn't be surprised if this fix started getting close to $10k with the haul out, storage fee, keel removal, shipping, bolts replaced, keel rebed..

Tell you what guys, Im damn close to packin' my bags and shipping them back to the states, get some work and find another boat in a year or two.

Any and all advice, fixed a lot of things recently but this one got me outta left field not really sure what to do.

Not all bolted lead keels use j-bolts, are you certain yours are? I'm sure that's the most likely possibility, but some of us are lucky enough to have through-bolts.

I've asked this in another forum, what's stopping you from hiring someone to drill new holes from the bilge? You could go all the way to the bottom, then bore a countersink for the nut from below... Seems like it'd be cheaper than 700 bucks a wack but I guess I don't know that. Is it at all feasible to drill a straight hole several feet through lead?

Or you could meet your new hole up higher with a boring from the side of the keel, I've seen a photo once of supersized "barrel nuts" (like IKEA furniture fasteners, a solid cylinder with a threaded hole in the *side* of it) being inserted in the side of a keel to meet retrofitted bolts coming down from the bilge.

And finally, I believe Catalina used to have a kit for sistering old keel bolts with lag screws? Anyone have any info about that? I guess you'd just drill a pilot hole and crank in the lag screw, not sure how much depth you'd need before you had an adequate bite in the soft lead. Seems like a real cheap and easy fix, maybe the right rescue for an old boat that's about to get abandoned otherwise?

[jimbunyard]

Way too many variables and unknowns to address the OP's question, beyond if 2 are that bad, so are others, but yes, you can drill holes all the way through lead ballast....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdh7Da3D3ek

[billknny]

The lag bolts someone mentioned are certainly a possibility, but be sure you have those done by someone with experience with it. If things are not done "just right" they can gaul in the lead and get stuck halfway in. And if you don't drop the keel, you are still left with the leaks that probably caused the corrosion in the first place...

The usual way of installing new keel boats is to drill down, and then horizontally. Square off the top of the horizontal hole with chisels (it is just lead!) and put in a nut and bolt. Fill with epoxy. Any good sailboat yard can do this, no earthly reason to ship the keel to Rhode Island!

You CAN drill all the way through... but again.. if you don't drop and rebed the keel you haven't really fixed the problem...

If you "pack your bags" and head home... what do you do with the O'Day?

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by billknny

And if you don't drop the keel, you are still left with the leaks that probably caused the corrosion in the first place...







... but again.. if you don't drop and rebed the keel you haven't really fixed the problem...

They could use silicon or phosphor bronze fasteners. With their lead keel there would be no corrosion threat regardless of the keel/hull joint’s watertightness.

I think after doing a little engineering homework I’d be leaning toward ordering bronze lag screws from a specialty fastener shop if I were in this guy’s position.

[jimbunyard]

Well, for starters a disclaimer...I've had beers since 7 pm...

This talk of 'lag screws', regardless of their composition, seems singularly irresponsible.

Certainly they'll hold for 'X' torque at their initial installation, but at what point does their 'grip' in an extremely malleable metal held initially and supposedly rigidly in a cyclically flexible system become compromised? Can they even be re-torqued?

Further, given the deterioration of the existing bolts, there is no possible way of knowing the condition of the structure (for a fiberglass boat, the laminate in the keel stub or hull) holding them without removing the ballast and, if applied, the gelcoat on the interior and exterior at the lead or iron/glass joint.

If one is personally prepared to take that risk (regardless of the permanence, or lack thereof, of using a screw in a soft irrigid metal), fine, and I can't say that I wouldn't either, but given the uncertainty of life in general, who's prepared to take the responsibility for passing a potentially catastrophic (and I'm not using the term flippantly) situation on to an ignorant future owner?

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Motown.

[IdoraKeeper]

You are right to be concerned. A close analysis of your own desires and motivations is required. If you keep it you must fix it. Think about it.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

blah blah blah good points about lag screws blah blah blah sanctimonious baloney

I assumed since it was SOP for Catalina, there was some amount of merit to the idea. Admittedly I’m not certain about how it would last or what geometry the screws ought to be (which is why I said it requires ‘engineering homework’, so maybe calm down a bit, hmm? Its an idea, and presented as such.)

What do you think might be going wrong with the fiberglass? Why would the condition of the keel bolts be indicative of structural problems with the fiberglass?

[a64pilot]

Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don’t.
I assume you still want to sail, you’ll lose money on the boat you have now if you sell it, then lose money on the next, and maybe it has a problem too.
At least you have shook this Boat down and likely know the worst of the problems, but an old Boat is like an old house, they need work and constant maintenance.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don’t.
I assume you still want to sail, you’ll lose money on the boat you have now if you sell it, then lose money on the next, and maybe it has a problem too.
At least you have shook this Boat down and likely know the worst of the problems, but an old Boat is like an old house, they need work and constant maintenance.

Sometimes I think this way, but sometimes I think I'm trapped in a logical fallacy - I've spent this much money already, can't stop now!


Back to Jim's points above, to the OP, I personally wouldn't install lag screws in my own boat. I'd always worry if the installation was correct, or did that last turn strip the threads and now I've got a ticking time bomb? On a boat your size, a keel failure is deadly, so whatever you do, take it very seriously and at the very least make sure it's a decision that experienced folks feel is adequate.

[MartinR]

It's a boat. Things break, you fix

[billknny]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

....

At least you have shook this Boat down and likely know the worst of the problems, but an old Boat is like an old house, they need work and constant maintenance.

You might think so... but this is someone who sailed to the Bahamas from VA in a 35 year old boat to be "surprised" by keel bolts so rotten they fell off when tapped. My wild guess is they were not bright and shiny before the gulf stream crossing, but were "out of sight/out of mind."

Do you think the rig is up to snuff? and the chainplates? How about a compression test on the engine?

As for the lag bolts, they are a good method well documented and accepted for repairing the keels on small boats. BUT--- They are really hard to do well. for lots of reasons. They are a less expensive option than some other ways of doing it, but the average boat-owner shouldn't consider them a DIY project by any means without input from someone who really know how to do it.

• Just drilling a very deep hole in lead is hard. Doing it with a hand drill and bits from your local hardware store is likely to be...very frustrating!
• The diameter of the hole has to be exactly right for the bolts used. Too big and there will be corrosion and poor strength, too small, and the bolt will gaul and seize part way in.
• I understand when someone suggest using bronze lag bolts for corrosion resistance. It sounds like a good idea... BUT... you have to be SURE the bonze bolt can take the torque needed to form the threads in the lead without breaking.
• The lag bolt has to be LONG.
• You have to lubricate it with the RIGHT stuff to get all the way in.
• There is a limit to the size (both length and diameter) lag bolt you can install in lead with "normal" tools. Torques are really high.
• I have seen it done successfully in boats up to 30 feet or so, but ALWAYS after dropping the keel for proper rebedding and inspection of the keel stub. I have done this myself on two Olsen 25s. I don't know how big a boat is "too big" for this approach.
• The idea of just drilling a couple holes and throwing in lag bolts as a stopgap is I agree, dangerously NOT the right answer.
• When ever I re-torque a keel bolt, I consider it a serious problem if the nut turns, even a little. That mean something has moved, crushed or stretched that absolutely should NEVER move, crush, or stretch. When you re-torque lag bolts in lead you are looking for the same thing. If the bolt head turns, that means the bolt has corroded and lost strength, and you are going to be dropping the keel... to be rebedded correctly this time.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

blah blah blah good points about lag screws blah blah blah sanctimonious baloney

Originally Posted by chris95040

I assumed since it was SOP for Catalina, there was some amount of merit to the idea. Admittedly I’m not certain about how it would last or what geometry the screws ought to be (which is why I said it requires ‘engineering homework’, so maybe calm down a bit, hmm? Its an idea, and presented as such.)

What do you think might be going wrong with the fiberglass? Why would the condition of the keel bolts be indicative of structural problems with the fiberglass?

You actually expect a response?

On second thought...OK

Please demonstrate how

Originally Posted by jimbunyard
Well, for starters a disclaimer...I've had beers since 7 pm...

This talk of 'lag screws', regardless of their composition, seems singularly irresponsible.

Certainly they'll hold for 'X' torque at their initial installation, but at what point does their 'grip' in an extremely malleable metal held initially and supposedly rigidly in a cyclically flexible system become compromised? Can they even be re-torqued?

Further, given the deterioration of the existing bolts, there is no possible way of knowing the condition of the structure (for a fiberglass boat, the laminate in the keel stub or hull) holding them without removing the ballast and, if applied, the gelcoat on the interior and exterior at the lead or iron/glass joint.

If one is personally prepared to take that risk (regardless of the permanence, or lack thereof, of using a screw in a soft irrigid metal), fine, and I can't say that I wouldn't either, but given the uncertainty of life in general, who's prepared to take the responsibility for passing a potentially catastrophic (and I'm not using the term flippantly) situation on to an ignorant future owner.

is

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous
ˌsaNG(k)təˈmōnēəs/
adjectivederogatory

adjective: sanctimonious
making a show of being morally superior to other people.



Or do you think passing a potentially dangerous situation (regardless of what Catalina or anyone else does) on to an unsuspecting and/or ignorant future owner (intentionally or not) is 'morally' (since you bring it up) justified?

Caveat emptor I suppose....

[Cheechako]

There's a reason I always reply on this forum to prospective buyers that a fiberglass keel is a a benefit. You just found out why. Not that everyone will have a problem like yours, but none will know until they drop their keel and find out.
It's just another thing you can eliminate even having to consider if you have a problem on.
I'm for the "drop the keel, tap it with new holes and bolt it back on" group.