Inferior materials on quality boats, why?

[alaskaflyfish]

This Memorial Weekend past, I had the opportunity to inspect a 1976 Islander Freeport 41 Ketch that I was really interested in purchasing. The vessel had been sitting unused for several years. I had already settled on a price to purchase pending a pre-buy inspection that I would do. I am an aircraft inspector by trade. The boat had recently (less than a year) had a marine survey by the seller to establish a price base. Immediately upon arrival I noticed the main mast had sunk into the deck at the step at least 1" below level, creating a dimple. I went below and looked up at the offset compression post and noticed cracks and warping immediately under the mast. I then followed the post down to below the floor. This is where the problem started. In the forward keel/bilge area lay a mound of rust where a compression bracket used to be. I could see the outline of where it used to be. Obviously mild steel. I disappointingly pointed this out to the broker, who was genuinely surprised as well. I then projected out a path to repair this discrepancy and explained (my opinion) an estimate on time and money to rectify this issue. I then explained what could happen if somebody tried to raise the sails while the mast was in this condition. The rear mast was a little better but still needed the bracket replaced due to serious rust. Almost the entire interior would have to be removed to facilitate a repair on both mast compression brackets. The rest of the boat was fine and well built. I estimated the boat to have little value due to this issue. The broker asked "why mild steel in a damp wet area for an item that is so important and structural". Built in obsolescence perhaps? Cost savings? I don't really know. I like the boat and am capable of fixing it. But summers are short and winter is really cold. So the question is "why use mild steel in the bilge". I notice other boat manufactures use this material for mast support brackets. They got to know its going to rust to pieces someday and become a dangerous liability.
I should note that the compression post are vertical wood beams that are built in and part of the boats interior cabinetry.

[Paul L]

It did last 42 years.

[Suijin]

Even on the best built boats you sometimes discover boneheaded things.

I replaced the mast step on my boat a few years ago. It was aluminum, bolted down on the keel's stainless steel backing plate. Or rather, what was left of it had been bolted down; most of the foot of it had corroded away. A slow trickle of saltwater from the anchor locker had done it in.

The design was changed in later boats to isolate the aluminum from the SS.

My boat is also one of those where replacing the engine requires some major cabinetry surgery, and is considered one of the most expensive to repower. Not sure whether to blame Bob Perry for that or whoever spec'ed the engine.

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It did last 42 years.

Well sort of, meaning it was in a constant state of rapid decay. Where as everything else around it maintained it's integrity. Come to think about, I'm not sure it actually lasted 42 years since it is pile of iron oxide at this point.

[model 10]

Don't wear your FAA IA hat when you are looking at boats. Your head might blow up.

[JPA Cate]

Hello, alaskaflyfish,

Our first "Insatiable" had mild steel under the mast step. It may have been common practice at the time, and people weren't used to boats lasting so long.

I don't think it applies to the ketch you're looking at, but as new materials and new methods of construction were applied in making grp boats, some "mistakes" were made, and some of them led to costly repairs.

Even with modern liner-built constructions, there are significant (imo) problems, similarly very expensive to repair.

You'll learn a lot. The allusion in Eco's post seems quite valid to me. It is that there has never been the safety legislation that applies to aircraft applied to boats.

Ann

[alaskaflyfish]

I should have noted in my previous post that the sub floor mild steel compression bracket is(was) about 12" tall and in a "V" shape to meet the contour the the hull, so it being non existent means the mast support beam above the floor and deck now has a long way to compress with nothing under it. Not a simple plate sitting on a block of fiberglass like many boats.

[billknny]

Remember, people build WHOLE BOATS out of steel...

So it's not really a case of a totally inappropriate choice of material (but I'll grant you it could have been better) but rather a case of a part buried in the bilge that got all the attention that most boat owners give to parts they can not see.

People who own boats, especially older boats, come to accept that salt water in the bilge is normal. Once that line is crossed, then the boat is doomed. On a well maintained boat the bilge is DRY. Any boat that has a constant source of water around mast step and keel boats is in trouble.

On a well designed, and well maintained boat, kept up by someone who knows what they are doing, and with the resources to do it right, you do not mop the bilge, you DUST it.

[alaskaflyfish]

I would love to keep my bilge dry but the stuffing box on my current boat just drips once every 12 seconds. After a week that adds up. Next year I will add a dripless shaft packing, but until then the only thing in my bilge is a pump. If I had bolts or mast step that would be a different story. Dust would be a beautiful thing.

[CarlF]

There's a good chance that the mast step was prepared by a guy at a local shop who didn't now where it was going. The worker at Islander who put it in may have been new and not known the difference. Such is the problem of low volume boat building.

The problem is even worse today with a global supply change. A boat builder told me of a hot water heater that failed on a boat he built when the boat was just one year old. He'd been buying this US brand water heater for a decade. Of course, he replaced it under warranty. After it was removed from the boat he had it cut open and found that the stainless tank had been welded with mild steel welding rod. Evidently production had been moved to China without any notice to the builder. Once the tank was encased in foam insulation, there was no way the boatbuilder could have known without destructive testing.

I find it amazing that fiberglass boats so reliably last 40+ years without extraordinary care. Prior to fiberglass, wood and steel boats hardly ever lasted that more than 30 without considerable and sustained effort.

[alaskaflyfish]

What is remarkable was the contrast between the durability and longevity of everything around the support bracket (which was a complete failure).

[roverhi]

Boats such as the Cal 40 and some of the Morgan designed Columbias from the mid early to mid '60s had mild steel reinforcing built into them. The quality of the design and build for everything else was/is capable of lasting a century. Even if galvanized, using steel in the bilge is doomed to eventual failure. Don't know why the designers didn't spec. stainless steel and insist the builder used it on such other wise solid boats. Assume the designer spec'd the metal reinforcement because it was the early days of FRP boats and they weren't sure how solid the glass was. The Islander was built well after these earlier boats so there was no excuse for cheating out on the keel step.

[edgaroviz]

the keel mounted mast step in my boat is from wood, but then again my boat has weird material choices in some places.

In my opinion just because you're able to fix it, it doesn't mean you should.
Before buying my boat I saw some other boats with damage, but many more experienced people told me to invest some more money in a boat instead of putting that money later into the repair, which costs you time and money.

I was really happy I made the choice of buying a functioning boat instead of being busy with repairs for the next few months. maybe think about if you want to go down that road..?

Every boat need fixing, but some need more fixing than others.

[Emmalina]

My compression post died after 35 years as the idiots drilled holes through the base to hold it in position but the glass was cored! Over the years the wood rotted and we had to rebuild the lot.. no core this time though !

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

This Memorial Weekend past, I had the opportunity to inspect a 1976 Islander Freeport 41 Ketch that I was really interested in purchasing. The vessel had been sitting unused for several years. I had already settled on a price to purchase pending a pre-buy inspection that I would do. I am an aircraft inspector by trade. The boat had recently (less than a year) had a marine survey by the seller to establish a price base. Immediately upon arrival I noticed the main mast had sunk into the deck at the step at least 1" below level, creating a dimple. I went below and looked up at the offset compression post and noticed cracks and warping immediately under the mast. I then followed the post down to below the floor. This is where the problem started. In the forward keel/bilge area lay a mound of rust where a compression bracket used to be. I could see the outline of where it used to be. Obviously mild steel. I disappointingly pointed this out to the broker, who was genuinely surprised as well. I then projected out a path to repair this discrepancy and explained (my opinion) an estimate on time and money to rectify this issue. I then explained what could happen if somebody tried to raise the sails while the mast was in this condition. The rear mast was a little better but still needed the bracket replaced due to serious rust. Almost the entire interior would have to be removed to facilitate a repair on both mast compression brackets. The rest of the boat was fine and well built. I estimated the boat to have little value due to this issue. The broker asked "why mild steel in a damp wet area for an item that is so important and structural". Built in obsolescence perhaps? Cost savings? I don't really know. I like the boat and am capable of fixing it. But summers are short and winter is really cold. So the question is "why use mild steel in the bilge". I notice other boat manufactures use this material for mast support brackets. They got to know its going to rust to pieces someday and become a dangerous liability.
I should note that the compression post are vertical wood beams that are built in and part of the boats interior cabinetry.

I guess you blew away quality boat with the mild steel in the bilge. What else might you find or not find?