Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

I appreciate Konakoma giving us follow up. I disagree with the discussion about the Galvanic isolator as this would have happened due to stray current when compressor was turned on. What is uncertain from my view point is the partial short due to manufacturer or was it installer. (If full short, the protection would have operated wouldn't it) Asking either supplier/installer/manufacturer each would blame the other wouldn't they, personally I'd prefer independant testing, otherwise this issue will remain academic.

A galvanic isolator will not protect you from stray DC current emanating from your own boat.

[Oceanride007]

I read some earlier posts, esp about KK saying that the damage occurred during a two week period, where I assume the equipment was isolated (presume at CB). KK also says that they (presume late in day) installed a bonding wire from the keel condensor to a spot on the Engine as per instructions.
I have to concede that I may have been wrong to assume, stray current thru the compressor/electronic box and via HP pipe to the keel condenser.
But I wonder where that bonding wire touched at the other end, perhaps the battery positive that often connects Starter Positive to Alternator.
If such a event did happen, it would explain a great deal. The resultant current would complete the circuit by battery + to keel condenser, to shaft or any mechanical connection and then back to Battery Negative.
Speculation of course I cannot know, can I ask KonaKoma to check the polarity of the terminal he found near the engine. It’s the sort of mistake that I think would survive a commissioning test.
If not I cannot think of a scenario that would consume the keel condenser but not the anodes if bonding wire was properly in place, KonaKoma what condition were your anodes.

[konakoma]

After 3 1/2 weeks of operation, replacement Frigoboat system still operating to specs. and ice cream rock hard. Still no definitive cause of this catastrophic failure, but Veco Spa in Italy has old stuff for inspection. Think we're done with this, but one MEGA pain, and expensive.

[konakoma]

Oceanride 007
The ground wire from the keel cooler was attached directly to the main auxiliary, along with several other wires. There was (and still is) no chance of touching a positive battery terminal or connection

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

I read some earlier posts, esp about KK saying that the damage occurred during a two week period, where I assume the equipment was isolated (presume at CB). KK also says that they (presume late in day) installed a bonding wire from the keel condensor to a spot on the Engine as per instructions.
I have to concede that I may have been wrong to assume, stray current thru the compressor/electronic box and via HP pipe to the keel condenser.
But I wonder where that bonding wire touched at the other end, perhaps the battery positive that often connects Starter Positive to Alternator.
If such a event did happen, it would explain a great deal. The resultant current would complete the circuit by battery + to keel condenser, to shaft or any mechanical connection and then back to Battery Negative.
Speculation of course I cannot know, can I ask KonaKoma to check the polarity of the terminal he found near the engine. It’s the sort of mistake that I think would survive a commissioning test.
If not I cannot think of a scenario that would consume the keel condenser but not the anodes if bonding wire was properly in place, KonaKoma what condition were your anodes.

[konakoma]

If we had received some initial positive response from the distributors of the equipment rather that a verbal advice that there was nothing they could or would do to help, we would not have gone down this road and no one on this forum would have heard about it. But that did not happen. It was only after we notified them that their response was unacceptable and that we were not going to go quietly in the night, did anything positive start to happen. I must add that I am not sure that had I not included in the communications, Carlo Formenti, CEO of the parent co. in Italy, that anything would have been resolved here.

I'm from a town in the northern midwest, flyover country. Growing up we learned to do what you say you'll do, be honest and be respectful. if we weren't, the parents would boot our asses around the block. The same is expected of whom we engage in commerce. When that does not happen, we fight, not apologize.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I can't believe you are still disparaging Veco after they've been SOOOOO patient and helpful to you, IMHO way, way, way more than you were due. Your suggestion that they were at fault and should accept blame despite only having half of the failed part to inspect isn't reasonable and is what you WISH were true but you have no evidence to support that wish.

As many here opined, the problem was most likely caused by installer error, or you had a stray current problem during the period you were away from your boat. Neither of those issues are the manufacturers fault. Despite this, and despite you continuing to publicly disparage them, they have GIVEN you a free replacement! To me, that seems like amazing support. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want to be reassured that you have dealt with or have the proper equipment onboard to deal with any future stray current issues so this doesn't happen again. I really think that the only fault with them that you have proof of is that their dealer sent you two emails at the wrong address, who among us hasn't done the same? Other than that, you really couldn't ask for better service than you're received based on what I've read on this thread.

No, I don't work for them, I'm very happy with my water or air cooled Seafrost unit, but after reading this whole thread, if I ever need to replace it, I wouldn't hesitate to consider using Frigoboat just for the way they've gone the extra mile to make you happy despite the lack of any proof that they or their product were in any way at fault. You owe them an apology and huge thanks!

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by konakoma

If we had received some initial positive response from the distributors of the equipment rather that a verbal advice that there was nothing they could or would do to help, we would not have gone down this road and no one on this forum would have heard about it. But that did not happen. It was only after we notified them that their response was unacceptable and that we were not going to go quietly in the night, did anything positive start to happen. I must add that I am not sure that had I not included in the communications, Carlo Formenti, CEO of the parent co. in Italy, that anything would have been resolved here.

I'm from a town in the northern midwest, flyover country. Growing up we learned to do what you say you'll do, be honest and be respectful. if we weren't, the parents would boot our asses around the block. The same is expected of whom we engage in commerce. When that does not happen, we fight, not apologize.

I'm not sure what part of the country you're from has to do with this. Honesty and expecting honesty from others isn't unique to any one place or area.

You say that if you hadn't written to the CEO that nothing would have been resolved, but what HAS been resolved? Can you or they say for sure what caused your heat exchanger to fall off? It seems to me that without knowing what caused the failure that you successfully went after the entity with the deepest pockets so you got your unit replaced for free. But do you KNOW that the original unit wasn't just fine and some stray current or possibly an incorrect installation caused the problem? I don't think you can say that for sure at this point, and yet you have a brand new unit on your boat. If you don't know 100% for sure that the original product was at fault, and yet you've said all these bad things about this company, then I'm not sure how qualified you are to be lecturing anyone about honesty. Hopefully if something about the original installation turns out to be faulty or if some other reason is found, your flyover country upbringing will demand that you pay them back for the new unit and publicly apologize for suggesting that they put out a faulty product.

I can understand your frustration about buying something and then having it catastrophically fail so quickly, but I'd want to KNOW (not just guess) the WHY of the failure before I felt qualified to accuse anyone or demand that they give me another one for free, and I bet there's quite a few people from flyover country who were brought up that same way.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I'm not sure what part of the country you're from has to do with this. Honesty and expecting honesty from others isn't unique to any one place or area.

You say that if you hadn't written to the CEO that nothing would have been resolved, but what HAS been resolved? Can you or they say for sure what caused your heat exchanger to fall off? It seems to me that without knowing what caused the failure that you successfully went after the entity with the deepest pockets so you got your unit replaced for free. But do you KNOW that the original unit wasn't just fine and some stray current or possibly an incorrect installation caused the problem? I don't think you can say that for sure at this point, and yet you have a brand new unit on your boat. If you don't know 100% for sure that the original product was at fault, and yet you've said all these bad things about this company, then I'm not sure how qualified you are to be lecturing anyone about honesty. Hopefully if something about the original installation turns out to be faulty or if some other reason is found, your flyover country upbringing will demand that you pay them back for the new unit and publicly apologize for suggesting that they put out a faulty product.

I can understand your frustration about buying something and then having it catastrophically fail so quickly, but I'd want to KNOW (not just guess) the WHY of the failure before I felt qualified to accuse anyone or demand that they give me another one for free, and I bet there's quite a few people from flyover country who were brought up that same way.

[socaldmax]

Wow!

A lot of people seem to be attacking this guy. Or at the very least, not being very supportive of his position as a purchaser of a potentially defective product. I understand how improper installation and stray current could have destroyed the first unit, although 3 weeks does seem pretty fast for that level of damage.

The fact that the 2nd unit was installed in exactly the same fashion, on the same vessel gives me a very strong suspicion that the initial unit actually was defective, which from my personal experience happens a lot, regardless of price or reputed quality. If I had a dollar for every time a mfr told me, "Ive never seen that before" or "That's impossible!" I'd be sailing around the world on my mega yacht. I had one guy swear up and down that what I told him was impossible. I told him I'd send him 12 mp digital pics of "the impossible," just give me your email address. Even after viewing the pics and agreeing that yes, the hub was completely filled with sand, he still stated that it was impossible. Later, I met a guy who knows all of the race teams, and he overheard me talking about these hubs. He interrupted me and said, "Kreiger hubs, right? Everyone is having seal/dirt intrusion problems with them, and he tells everyone that he's NEVER seen that before."

That's been my experience with 75% of the mfrs or vendors of the expensive items I buy. I'm no fan of lawsuits, but when dealing with large corporations (especially auto makers) sometimes that's the only thing that gets their attention and stops their lying. From what he posted online, it does seem like he jumped on the mfr pretty quickly, but remember, not everything gets included in the post. He may very well have asked for input from a few installers/experts and got the answers that pointed him to the mfr. It sure seems like a lot of you were sure fast to point the finger at the installer, even though you don't know him, his reputation, or exactly how well he installed the unit.

I'm just glad he has a working unit, after all, that's what he paid for to begin with.

[Therapy]

Great thread. I learned a lot about refrigeration units and interpersonal relationships. Thanks all.My end result is I would like one of those that use the freshwater tank as the heatsink. It sounds like the best option to me. Does anybody sell a unit like that in the US?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Great thread. I learned a lot about refrigeration units and interpersonal relationships. Thanks all.My end result is I would like one of those that use the freshwater tank as the heatsink. It sounds like the best option to me. Does anybody sell a unit like that in the US?

You can use the same Frigoboat unit for that… but it also means that the heat is transferred from fridge to your water tank, plus some due to inefficiencies of the compressor unit.

[Neptune's Gear]

Therapy, I've sold a few into the US. Check my website. Www.neptunes-gear.com

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You can use the same Frigoboat unit for that… but it also means that the heat is transferred from fridge to your water tank, plus some due to inefficiencies of the compressor unit.

I wonder what the temp difference would be on a 30 gal tank?
What happens if the tank gets all used up?
Wonder what the real difference in amp draw / 24 hrs would be?

Will be looking into it when I get the next boat and need to improve/upgrade/replace refrigeration.

[senormechanico]

Before installing my keel cooled system, I thought about using the fresh water tank.
I decided against it even though it would have not risked any corrosion possibilities and avoided any hull drag.
The deciding factor for me was the location of the fiberglass tank in the bow.
Being a multihull with a Spectra watermaker, we like to travel with no more than a quarter tank (roughly five gallons) which didn't seem like enough of a heat sink.

I installed the keel cooler (on a tide grid no less) and bonded it with the rest of the underwater metal. No problems since.

[konakoma]

Frigoboat system installed and operational now 7 months, and performing per specs. Not a word from Frigoboat or the NA distributor Coastal Climate about cause of failure after studying failed, returned equipment. All other systems, thru hulls etc continue to work-no other issues. Still no idea about cause of this catastrophic failure, just another unexpected curveball I reckon, but there will be no future Frigoboat equipment installed on anything we own (if for no other reason than my wife would murder me).

[konakoma]

Have now completed two Carib cruises and the replacement Frigoboat system & keel cooler has worked perfectly. Keeps steaks frozen, ice cream hard and spillover fridge is perfect, even in warm 85 F tropical water. Would recommend this system BUT NOT Coastal Climate, the distributor. If you have a problem and need to rely on them for warranty, you're screwed unless you sue, and write Carlo Formenti in Italy, like we did.