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Old 12-02-2016, 05:32   #46
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Ever used 3 way connectors?

May want to try these Wago 222 connectors.

They are rated for 600volts, but are used for 12 volts also.
They are simple and fast to use and also reusable.
They were on my boat for both 110 and 12 volts wiring and it makes it very easy to tie in new stuff.
They sell them online. I found some on ebay.
They have three different models
222-412 2 Port
222-413 3 Port
222-415 5 Port

Have been using them for over 10 years on my boat with no problems. You can use them at home also.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:46   #47
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The fallacy in this post is assuming that just because both crimped and soldered joints can fail due to flexing or vibration, that they are equally susceptible to this mode of failure.

They are most certainly not. A crimped connection preserves the flexibility of the wire strands. A soldered connection destroys this flexibility, because solder wicks down the strands and forms a solid, inflexible, brittle, weak mass.

Preserving the flexibility of the wire strands does not prevent any failure whatsoever -- there is a limit to how much flexing in one place copper strands can withstand. But flexible copper wire strands are about 1000x if not more resistant to failure from flexing, than tin/lead, which is a weak, brittle material.

And the quality of the soldering job has no influence on the basic properties of the materials involved.
Quality of soldering has lot's to do with it and no doubt is where a lot of this solder hate comes from. It is easier to do a dodgy solder joint then a dodgy crimp so soldering is most certainly not to be recommended for those that are unskilled in this area.

You should go watch how generators and alternators are made. It just might change your mind. I worked in that industry for many years and the most destructive thing that can happen happen to a generator is that it will "throw solder" when the temperature increases above the eutectic point of the solder. And another thing, all alternators, generators and for that matter transformers are constructed from single core wires. The whole multi strand wire theory is way overblown. Yes fine multi strand wires are more flexible and will withstand fatigue but the intended use for this application is for continually flexed cords i.e. power leads, microphone leads etc. I see "tinned marine wire" proffered as the be all and end all quite often. Do a fatigue test on that stuff and be surprised. I'm not saying single strand is sensible to use as multi strand (and multi cored wires) are made in such a way that bending and tensile loads are distributed evenly through all strands/cores. However, regardless of the termination, if it anchors the strands it creates a stress point for the strands. This is why the actual solution is to support the wire / cable itself just ahead of the joint. I'll give points to machine crimps here, because they have this feature built in. Your average red, blue and yellow insulated crimps do not.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:02   #48
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

@ ziptie

Am I correct in thinking that these are limited to joining 2, 3, or 5 wires together?
And that all wires must enter from the same direction?

Do they make other connectors to, say, standard sized cable lugs?

Forgive my ignorance but I've never seen these before. Can see them being used as a bus but unless there are other types of connector in the range... not much else.

Maybe I've misunderstood again?
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:22   #49
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

unclemack,

The Wago 222 connectors handle wires from 28 to 12 AWG.

They act just like terminal blocks and connect all the wires together that are put in any hole. You can put smaller wires together and put them in one hole.

They really make things easy to replace or test.

They are easy and they just work with no fuss.

They only make the 2,3 and 5 connectors and only holes on one side.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:23   #50
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

The Navy taught me to use heat sinks to prevent the solder from wicking under the insulation, proper mechanical connection, and strain relief on all soldered connections. Never had a failure and the missile system on my old destroyer was much more critical than anything on my boat and had much more vibration stress.
The crimped connectors used during manufacture by Raytheon; well, we rebuilt quite a few of those using solder well pins.
All that being said; I also use crimps on non-critical connections on my boat because sometimes I get lazy.


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Old 12-02-2016, 06:48   #51
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Bought a big used bow thruster for a song on ebay a couple of years back.

Seller had replaced it for lack of reliability.

Everything was in perfect order except for the crimped bayonet terminals on the solenoid. Wire ends had parted inside the adhesive-lined shrink sleeve, causing a secondary intermittent contact.

OK, small bayonet terminals aren't the subject but the big windlass & thruster manufacturers all use them on the solenoid coil (to the switches) terminals as far as I know.

Wasn't hard to figure out the sequence of events:

Bayonets had loosened (probably heat-cycling, big solenoid) and caused intermittent action, owner had fiddled with them until the wire ends cracked and then given up on the whole thing.

Easiest fix ever, nice bargain too.
I love broken stuff.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:10   #52
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Quality of soldering has lot's to do with it and no doubt is where a lot of this solder hate comes from. It is easier to do a dodgy solder joint then a dodgy crimp so soldering is most certainly not to be recommended for those that are unskilled in this area.

You should go watch how generators and alternators are made. It just might change your mind. I worked in that industry for many years and the most destructive thing that can happen happen to a generator is that it will "throw solder" when the temperature increases above the eutectic point of the solder. And another thing, all alternators, generators and for that matter transformers are constructed from single core wires. The whole multi strand wire theory is way overblown. Yes fine multi strand wires are more flexible and will withstand fatigue but the intended use for this application is for continually flexed cords i.e. power leads, microphone leads etc. I see "tinned marine wire" proffered as the be all and end all quite often. Do a fatigue test on that stuff and be surprised. I'm not saying single strand is sensible to use as multi strand (and multi cored wires) are made in such a way that bending and tensile loads are distributed evenly through all strands/cores. However, regardless of the termination, if it anchors the strands it creates a stress point for the strands. This is why the actual solution is to support the wire / cable itself just ahead of the joint. I'll give points to machine crimps here, because they have this feature built in. Your average red, blue and yellow insulated crimps do not.
Well, that all sounds very reasonable, and maybe I've been somewhat brainwashed. I've seen so many broken solder joints it has just really made me hate them.

As to proper strain relief -- that's Electricity 101, isn't it? But I still think that the stress point created in a crimp connection is not nearly as fragile as the one created by a solder joint, so since strain relief is never anywhere perfect, the crimp connection surely is inherently superior in this regard.


I use an expensive Swedish crimp tool and Molex heat shrink terminals. I like these terminals because the insulation is really thick and resilient, and when you heat shrink it, it welds itself to the wire insulation and provides a significant length of really well strain-protected wire with thickened, resilient insulation. When you add to that normal strain protection, these terminals should be pretty much bomb-proof. They are also waterproof, which I think is important, because the salt air wicks down the strands and corrodes wire on board boats, in my experience.

This method is costly, I admit, but I have not seen any other method which is anywhere near as robust, strain-proof, and corrosion-proof.

I have a very reliable electrical system which was very well installed to begin with (with 100% crimp connections), and which despite numerous additions and modifications over the years, continues to be trouble-free (knock on wood). Proper joints and terminations must play a big role in this.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:39   #53
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, that all sounds very reasonable, and maybe I've been somewhat brainwashed. I've seen so many broken solder joints it has just really made me hate them.

As to proper strain relief -- that's Electricity 101, isn't it? But I still think that the stress point created in a crimp connection is not nearly as fragile as the one created by a solder joint, so since strain relief is never anywhere perfect, the crimp connection surely is inherently superior in this regard.


I use an expensive Swedish crimp tool and Molex heat shrink terminals. I like these terminals because the insulation is really thick and resilient, and when you heat shrink it, it welds itself to the wire insulation and provides a significant length of really well strain-protected wire with thickened, resilient insulation. When you add to that normal strain protection, these terminals should be pretty much bomb-proof. They are also waterproof, which I think is important, because the salt air wicks down the strands and corrodes wire on board boats, in my experience.

This method is costly, I admit, but I have not seen any other method which is anywhere near as robust, strain-proof, and corrosion-proof.

I have a very reliable electrical system which was very well installed to begin with (with 100% crimp connections), and which despite numerous additions and modifications over the years, continues to be trouble-free (knock on wood). Proper joints and terminations must play a big role in this.
As one about to embark on an overhaul of my mess of an electrical system (from the day the boat was built, never mind PO additions), I can only agree.

When I did my electrical courses many moons ago, we had a soldering class in the curriculum (which I got an exemption from 'cos I was already a guru at it by then) but I never recall having had to do a crimping class. Things may have changed since, but soldering is always going to require more skill then crimping although the two simple golden rules of successful soldering is cleanliness is next to godliness and let the work melt the solder, not the iron.

As for crimping, my tool of choice is a ratcheting crimper with replaceable dies. I have insulated crimp, machine crimp and coax dies. I'll always use machine crimps in high vibration (i.e. engine) or "never want to return to" locations e.g terminals located within the mast. I know this is sacrilege to some, but if I really, really don't want a machine crimp to let go , I'll also hit it with a dab of solder afterwards. Double walled heatshrink helps seal the join and I'm in the habit of also coating the terminals and connections with lanolin grease if I think corrosion will be a problem.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:17   #54
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
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Something I didn't know. I withdraw my comment about aviation.
I think some people are getting confused about different things. Soldering pins in a multipin connector or inside of a module where the wires are strain relieved is OK. Provided you're a properly trained solder technician. If you don't know how to heat sink a wire or use the wrong flux or camp on the wire too long, you will end up with a very inferior joint. Companies that build these connectors train all of their workers and a QA inspector checks the solder joints with a magnifier or a microscope.

But who builds multipin connectors on a boat? Most of the wiring that a boat owner is going to do will involve the 12v electrical system or 110v/220v system and these systems use fuse blocks or terminal strips etc and there are high reliability crimp connectors for all of that, in addition to adhesive heat shrink.

The only other repair I can think of is repairing a break in a cable or splicing an extra length onto an existing cable. Again, crimping is a better solution so as not to lose the flexibility of stranded cable.

I've been told that on US military aircraft, splicing a cable is not allowed, it must be a solid run from end to end. The Australian document he linked to is just a primer on basic soldering and solder cups. Nowhere in there does it state to solder a wire in mid run, or to solder 2 wires together.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:26   #55
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

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Originally Posted by amytom View Post
The Navy taught me to use heat sinks to prevent the solder from wicking under the insulation, proper mechanical connection, and strain relief on all soldered connections. Never had a failure and the missile system on my old destroyer was much more critical than anything on my boat and had much more vibration stress.
The crimped connectors used during manufacture by Raytheon; well, we rebuilt quite a few of those using solder well pins.
All that being said; I also use crimps on non-critical connections on my boat because sometimes I get lazy.


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How many people have the solder training you do?

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Old 12-02-2016, 14:38   #56
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

It should be noted ABYC doesn't ban the use of solder. It just requires a mechanical connection and it calls out solder not be the sole means of connection. So crimp and solder is acceptable and it calls out the solder joint shall be supported to minimize flexing.
As far as the original question some form of terminal block would be best.
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Old 12-02-2016, 14:45   #57
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Once a terminal is properly crimped there is no place for solder to go (it cannot penetrate).
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Old 12-02-2016, 14:54   #58
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

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Once a terminal is properly crimped there is no place for solder to go (it cannot penetrate).
I can assure you it can. Ever heard of capillary attraction?
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Old 12-02-2016, 14:56   #59
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Capillary action is meaningless to a solid.
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Old 12-02-2016, 15:03   #60
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Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

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Capillary action is meaningless to a solid.

The vast majority of crimps are not solid. I'm assuming you're suggesting strands somehow fuse together (like solder??) under intense pressure? Sure it's possible, but not in a typical installation. That's just a crazy myth. Not that that matters, because capillary attraction involves the fluid moving along the surface of an object. In fact, crimps to single strand wire are often soldered as a precaution.
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