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Old 13-07-2013, 08:39   #31
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Oh and this. You've made this statement on a number of threads now, and as a pro shipwright it makes absolutely no sense to me. Care to elaborate?
Thank you...I get beaten up by the mods when I challenge this guys knowledge. In regards to epoxy repair. I have never had any problems with stress around it or some of the other things you stated. What you say does make perfect sense but in the extremes. For covering up thru-hull holes and adding cleats inside the boat for shelving an such, I like to use epoxy for it's adhesion quality. It loves to stick
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Old 13-07-2013, 09:14   #32
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

We use both Poly and Epoxy , and in many ocasions we use Polyester for some kind of repairs, Epoxy is stronger but also more rigid than Poly, in some cases i need to keep that kind of controled flex in some areas, try to pacht a big hole in the hull with epoxy and glass , sure is stronger, but he created a tight spot, where the hull flex that spot dont want to flex.... the pros here use a lot Polyester and gelcoats, leaving the repair as close to the original as posible, and for some specific jobs epoxy, it depend the nature of the repair, in this case, for such nice cracks i vote for epoxy....
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Old 13-07-2013, 11:01   #33
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I agree with Minaret and Igotnuthin!

...any boat can be fixed if you're crazy (and rich) enough.
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Old 13-07-2013, 21:08   #34
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Thank you...I get beaten up by the mods when I challenge this guys knowledge. In regards to epoxy repair. I have never had any problems with stress around it or some of the other things you stated. What you say does make perfect sense but in the extremes. For covering up thru-hull holes and adding cleats inside the boat for shelving an such, I like to use epoxy for it's adhesion quality. It loves to stick


Lots of different kinds of extremes. As in, tested to failure by extremely high loads, or tested to failure by an extremely high number of load cycles, ie an extremely long time. I prefer my repairs to hold up to all of these extremes, as sometimes more than a clients pocketbook rests on the results. If poly allows me to do a better job in less time for significantly less materials expense, using it is a no-brainer. I'm certainly not saying that's always the case, but it often is. The present craze for epoxy does boat owners a disservice IMHO. I remember when it wasn't at all uncommon for a boat owner to have basic fiber glassing and gel coating skills, which are the skills which allow you to easily and cheaply maintain a fiberglass yacht. I rarely see this anymore, and I believe it is in part because of the crutch that is epoxy. Owners are afraid of poly because they've never used it, and have been lead to believe (falsely in my opinion) that epoxy is easier than poly. This irks me, as I see more and more people getting out of boating because they "can't afford the maintenance", when what they really mean is they can't do it themselves and won't be bothered to learn how. For those that do want to learn how, options are few and lessons in the field are often hard. So I try to put myself out there in an attempt to let people know that poly glass work ain't rocket science, and every boat owner should be able to do a gelcoat repair, with some instruction. It's easy really. Especially with the Internet at hand.


Challenge knowledge politely and you shouldn't get beaten up, the mods here are stellar. I just want a constructive conversation on the topic, it's why we're all here, right?
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Old 13-07-2013, 21:20   #35
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

The part of epoxy repair that's harder, IMO, is just that you should NEVER EVER apply it if the temperature is decreasing. If you do you'll be carving all the gooey crap off with a putty knife two days later.
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Old 13-07-2013, 21:26   #36
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
The part of epoxy repair that's harder, IMO, is just that you should NEVER EVER apply it if the temperature is decreasing. If you do you'll be carving all the gooey crap off with a putty knife two days later.



Explain please? I find the opposite to be true, to the extent that I often warm the substrate before glassing, particularly if I'm glassing in the morning after a cool night.
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Old 13-07-2013, 22:20   #37
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Lots of different kinds of extremes. As in, tested to failure by extremely high loads, or tested to failure by an extremely high number of load cycles, ie an extremely long time. I prefer my repairs to hold up to all of these extremes, as sometimes more than a clients pocketbook rests on the results. If poly allows me to do a better job in less time for significantly less materials expense, using it is a no-brainer. I'm certainly not saying that's always the case, but it often is. The present craze for epoxy does boat owners a disservice IMHO. I remember when it wasn't at all uncommon for a boat owner to have basic fiber glassing and gel coating skills, which are the skills which allow you to easily and cheaply maintain a fiberglass yacht. I rarely see this anymore, and I believe it is in part because of the crutch that is epoxy. Owners are afraid of poly because they've never used it, and have been lead to believe (falsely in my opinion) that epoxy is easier than poly. This irks me, as I see more and more people getting out of boating because they "can't afford the maintenance", when what they really mean is they can't do it themselves and won't be bothered to learn how. For those that do want to learn how, options are few and lessons in the field are often hard. So I try to put myself out there in an attempt to let people know that poly glass work ain't rocket science, and every boat owner should be able to do a gelcoat repair, with some instruction. It's easy really. Especially with the Internet at hand.


Challenge knowledge politely and you shouldn't get beaten up, the mods here are stellar. I just want a constructive conversation on the topic, it's why we're all here, right?
The crowd I hang with pretty much use both. I made a refer box mold this year using Melamine board and bondo for a temp mold and gel-coated and glassed with poly. My dodger top to my HR I made by forming 1/8" door skin over framing and bonded with epoxy but glassed the top itself with poly. For me sometimes a combination. What I see on occasion is someone on the dock doing poly work over ply without hot coating first and wonder why it pops off.
Challenge knowledge politely and carry a big stick...
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Old 13-07-2013, 22:31   #38
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
The part of epoxy repair that's harder, IMO, is just that you should NEVER EVER apply it if the temperature is decreasing. If you do you'll be carving all the gooey crap off with a putty knife two days later.
Lots of composite work done in the high desert. The temp falls every night there. If you used that kind of thinking you would never get anything done. Keep your resin warm and it kicks off just fine. If you have a big project build a plywood box for the ratio pump that holds a gallon of resin with a regular old light bulb inside to keep it all warm and you are good to go.
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Old 13-07-2013, 22:37   #39
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
The crowd I hang with pretty much use both. I made a refer box mold this year using Melamine board and bondo for a temp mold and gel-coated and glassed with poly. My dodger top to my HR I made by forming 1/8" door skin over framing and bonded with epoxy but glassed the top itself with poly. For me sometimes a combination. What I see on occasion is someone on the dock doing poly work over ply without hot coating first and wonder why it pops off.
Challenge knowledge politely and carry a big stick...


Sure, they both have a place. I've built large boats strictly in epoxy, I'm far from blind to it's virtues. For me, epoxy shines when it comes to working with wood. Which is something which I try to absolutely minimize, despite the fact that I got into the biz to be a wooden boatbuilder. This is because I try to give my clients the top shelf, and for boats wood ain't it. So I tend to replace wood with synthetics that bond with poly exceptionally well and never rot. This gives lighter, stronger, more permanent structures for less money. Plus it lets you finish in gel instead of paint, which is MUCH cheaper, faster, and more durable, as well as easier to repair. I won't get into poly over epoxy here, though it sounds like that's what you did with your top, and it's a no-no in my opinion...
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Old 13-07-2013, 23:01   #40
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sure, they both have a place. I've built large boats strictly in epoxy, I'm far from blind to it's virtues. For me, epoxy shines when it comes to working with wood. Which is something which I try to absolutely minimize, despite the fact that I got into the biz to be a wooden boatbuilder. This is because I try to give my clients the top shelf, and for boats wood ain't it. So I tend to replace wood with synthetics that bond with poly exceptionally well and never rot. This gives lighter, stronger, more permanent structures for less money. Plus it lets you finish in gel instead of paint, which is MUCH cheaper, faster, and more durable, as well as easier to repair. I won't get into poly over epoxy here, though it sounds like that's what you did with your top, and it's a no-no in my opinion...
If you think about it...the epoxy is between the ply's after its cured I finish cut the shape, route the edges, lam with layers of glass/poly over. The only place the poly touches the epoxy is the routed edges.
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Old 13-07-2013, 23:08   #41
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
If you think about it...the epoxy is between the ply's after its cured I finish cut the shape, route the edges, lam with layers of glass/poly over. The only place the poly touches the epoxy is the routed edges.



I'm sure it'll be just fine like that. Looks good, and it sure is fast and easy. Probably beats the hell out of paying a guy like me for a finished pro hard top! Can you walk on it?
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Old 13-07-2013, 23:14   #42
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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I'm sure it'll be just fine like that. Looks good, and it sure is fast and easy. Probably beats the hell out of paying a guy like me for a finished pro hard top! Can you walk on it?
I could probably dance on it but as a unit, it is as strong as it's weakest link. That being the windshield which would be a major pain if that buckled under the stress. I kneel on it all the time when working on the boom. I installed my lazy-jacks last weekend and that in itself alleviates some of the need to get on it. By the way...the reason I got into the part time boat repair work is I can't afford a pro like you...
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Old 13-07-2013, 23:24   #43
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
If you think about it...the epoxy is between the ply's after its cured I finish cut the shape, route the edges, lam with layers of glass/poly over. The only place the poly touches the epoxy is the routed edges.
From your pictures I see you were at Nelsons. I take it you got out OK?
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Old 14-07-2013, 00:14   #44
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

Ha...Ya...I bought the boat there. That was 2 years ago. I also had my Ingrid 38 there while I did a refit on it. Weird place. I'm sure you're hearing some of the stories floating around.
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Old 14-07-2013, 04:25   #45
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Re: Can this hull be fixed?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sure, they both have a place. I've built large boats strictly in epoxy, I'm far from blind to it's virtues. For me, epoxy shines when it comes to working with wood. Which is something which I try to absolutely minimize, despite the fact that I got into the biz to be a wooden boatbuilder. This is because I try to give my clients the top shelf, and for boats wood ain't it. So I tend to replace wood with synthetics that bond with poly exceptionally well and never rot. This gives lighter, stronger, more permanent structures for less money. Plus it lets you finish in gel instead of paint, which is MUCH cheaper, faster, and more durable, as well as easier to repair. I won't get into poly over epoxy here, though it sounds like that's what you did with your top, and it's a no-no in my opinion...
Not only thanks for posting about large poly repair but pointing out that gel is still a great top coat instead of the myth that 2 part epoxy paint is the only way to go.

Funny how manuafacturer/retail website lead ins and magazine writers have transformed a whole generation of boater's thinking.
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