Yanmar SB8 versus repower, versus more space and a larger outboard?

[SailingFan]

Well, as mine is the SB and not a YSB, it is a vertical shaft, and who knows what other issues differ. I think the bolton stuff may be the same or similar, and I was able to locate some items (valve springs) that were the same, but I am afraid to assume anything, as difficult as it is to get even part numbers for the SB-8.

I am going to go ahead and fabricate a pan, and then see what happens. The pan I have (the original one) has a side that has an eroded sealing point, so that sealing surface will need replaced and the flanges that formerly held bolts will have to be refabricated. Those holes are probably the hardest part.

Once that is done, I will see what can be done to bolt her back up, put in some oil, and bleed the system. Who knows, we may get her back on track with minimal hassle if the pressures on the pan and the torsion created by differential metal expansion rates are not problematic (the pan versus the block versus epoxy filler material versus whatever I find to make that sealing rim.. Maybe a metal strip that goes all the way around the entire pan mating surface is called for so that I can isolate that part and thereby eliminate expansion as a factor?).

As today is now my birthday (and thanks to the CF website for the automated email, even automated, it was a nice gesture!), I guess I will have to take an effort to work on this and see what I can do. Let's call it a present to myself to fix it!

I am SOOOO tired of watching my sailboat on blocks. Now I am starting to learn what a '70's redneck in Georgia or Texas feels like... Except, of course, my "vehicle" is generating a yard bill while she sits there...

[44'cruisingcat]

I'd be inclined to try the JB weld route. They make a high temperature resistant metal epoxy. Put plenty of effort into getting the surface really clean, coarse sand or maybe drill some holes to help key it.

[Dymaxion]

Can you post a pic of the problem area of the pan? I punched a large hole into an àluminium oil pan on my Beetle and patched it with a piece of thin stainless pop riveted in place with a Loctite-Permatex high temperature silicone (red) liberally applied. Lasted 2 years until I put a new pan on. It seems (to me) that you're putting a lot of effort into a small repair. No offense intended here, and I haven't seen the pan, but hopefully a simple patch job would do.

[SailingFan]

Hello, all.

Well, I have been thinking about it, and have come to the conclusion that I would rather have the internal storage volume, reduced cabin noise, increased cargo weight allowance, and gain increased HP from a four stroke outboard in place of this underpowered inboard Yanmar SB8. The SB8 is coming out.

I am going to probably put it on CraigsList along with the transmission, shaft, log, prop, new starter, new alternator, fuel filter mount and separator, etc., and even the 12 gallon fuel cell. Everything having to do with the Yanmar will go into a single listing, and maybe I can make enough to purchase an outboard of 15-20 HP and have some left over for doing some alterations (like adding a second jack plate on the transom for the larger outboard than the current 8 HP that is back there right now). I wonder what this much stuff would go for in the US in Florida? I may even deliver to the right customer!

I have been speaking with various marine industry folks at a local function all night about this locally, and they all agree that to do the repair on the pan, even if I only install a metal plate on top and fill the missing part with hi temp jb weld still leaves me underpowered at best. In the end, I get a comprimise anyway, so I may as well get one that is better than just bandaiding the underpowered plant's oilpan. She has strong compression, more's the pity, but that will solve a ton of issues while offering me additional options and even removes another source of potential leaks, because I am removing the shaft log as well, and epoxying the hole shut. No more zincs in the water! Additionally, I gain a vastly larger cockpit drain in the deal as well at someplace near 2 inches diameter or more (the current pair are woefully small at only about an inch or so in diameter!).

I will probably also toss the other pan in with the lot, and someone will have an extra option. I may fix this pan as described after the motor is out, but at least doing it will be TONS easier if I can turn the block over and work on it from the side!

Worst case scenario, I part it all out, and still get enough to get a used 2 stroke outboard, and that is not so bad either. As much as I have fought to find parts, I know that anyone with one of these is going to want all this stuff even if just to get a working transmission, non-damaged prop, new (literally) starter and alternator, new valve springs, brand new in the bag water pump, etc.

Anyway, thanks all for the input, and I appreciate the support and ideas, especially relative to using an outboard instead of fixing this inboard up. I would just rather have more HP at this point, even if I have to mount it with a longer yet shaft on a jackplate to get the depth I need, and if I have to maneuver oddly or deal with unusual current or a breakdown, I gain the use of two engines, or I get one larger OB and a spare sailboat shaft 8 HP Evinrude that I already have on her transom, for use with a dink or as a spare.

This makes my life far simpler and I think it will not really harm the value of the vessel, considering her vintage and the cost of actually putting a larger Beta/Nanni in there to replace the SB8. I can even finish out a gas locker with ventilation and a new fuel cell to ensure that fumes are not an issue, and gain pretty good range for the outboard/s above carry-on cells on deck (and in the way!).

The gain in storage area is pretty significant as well, and I can see a real benefit in that department because I can then actually gain a place for rain gear, and for my inflatable dingy, for instance! I currently have no such place on board (had to stuff the inflatable into a quarter berth, which is not terribly handy nor efficient storage), but these can then go in place of that fuel cell, draining directly into the bilge. I will take some shots of all of this as I go and update as we do it, so that if anyone wants to see what we turn this into, they will see what we were up against. I think the end results will be well worth the means.

[SailingFan]

You guys aren't going to believe this (or maybe you will) but the dockmaster at Gibson's and I discussed this issue, and he tells me that I should fix the pan and leave the engine in there if it runs. He actually made enough of an impact with our discussion that I have yet again reversed myself, and am leaving the engine in (for now). Dang my empty bank account...

So, I am going to explore some other options. I am going to fix the pan with some epoxy and a bit of metal "gasket" around the top to ensure an even seal is made with the block, I am going to work on clearing out the nest of unattached wiring in the engine bay, and connecting the ones that go to alarms as needed (or maybe removing them and installing new alarms and wires, as they are cheap to install if I can determine where each would go and can go aftermarket with it), and I am going to replace the exhaust discharge hose (as it currently is an automotive radiator hose, and I am relatively confident that this would not meet mil-spec ).



So here are the pans. The white one is relatively new, and in excellent shape, so of course is for the wrong Yanmar and of little apparent use at the moment.

The orange/corrosion colored pan is the problem child. It is currently being degreased, of course. Note that on what would be the port side after installation, there is a small area on the sealing surface that is actually missing. It is entirely corroded away, along with a bit of the external surface of the pan, so I will be building this thing up a bit on that side just to ensure some thickness is present. You will see in these photos that I have not exaggerated the extent of the damage, I believe. Note to everyone, "Always fix all saltwater leaks immediately, especially if they spray onto aluminum components and more so if those components are in direct contact with iron or steel components as well!!"

There are also several bolt hole flanges that have corroded most of the way off the pan. My plan is to create a flat aluminum plate to cover the entirety of the sealing surface to gain an even structure at the block (which itself is still intact, fortunately), and fill under it and along the rotted side of this pan with hi temp JB Weld (that 1400 degree stuff) after removing the remaining grease from this pan. After that, I am thinking it should seal well and keep the oil in.

My mounting plan is to GENTLY smooth the epoxied part of the pan surface that is being rebuilt so that the epoxy is flat to the new gasket plate, and then use black formagasket silicone to bond the plate to the pan.

After this, I will determine the proper size drill bit to create new holes in the epoxied section of the pan, and ensure that the placement is correct using the bit shank as a guide as I form the epoxy around the drill bit. I am considering some sort of release agent on the bit shank, so I can form the hole rather than having to drill it, thus limiting the potential for problems while drilling epoxy. However, I am still considering the agent because I don't want to contaminate the epoxy or cause any other issue. I am considering a small bit of aluminum foil wrapped around the bit itself. If it sticks, then, no problem removing it, and for that matter, it could even remain in place.

Then I will put the same black formagasket material on the plate and the block, and attach the new pan assembly back onto the block as it was originally attached. It should only add 1/16 inch or less of depth to the pan, so will fit in the space with no additional issues, and my bolt lengths should be acceptable as well.

That is the plan, anyway...

Now, who knows someone who needs that white, darned near brand spanking new pan??? I think it goes to a YSB-8 or maybe something larger, but it is NOT for an SB8 for sure. Positive...

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[Ita]

Originally Posted by Wotname

It is not pressurised

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Ir

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Ita

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[Cheechako]

Well... a boat with an inboard diesel is always worth more than with an OB. Can you get that old pan lightly sandblasted outside before you epoxy?
Consider laying it on a flat surface with wax paper on the surface when you lay up the flange. It wont stick to the wax paper and will come out nice and flat. I would use "boat cloth" for the layup.
Another option is to just chill out, mount the outboard and use your boat, leave the engine in place and just keep looking for a good pan. Eventually something will turn up, meanwhile you are using your boat. You could just use a 5-8 HP engine and then it will double for your dingy when you get the new pan...

[SailingFan]

Well, I currently have the long shaft e Evinrude on the stern motor bracket, so I can still move the boat assuming I am not in any hobbyhorse situation, but I have been thinking a lot about this, and I find it difficult to release from the thought that a prop under the hull just must be more useful than one behind it.

I am currently degreasing the pan (the white one is the one that won't fit, the orange and corrosion colored one is the one that I have to rebuild), and have some JB Weld now to do the buildup. I have been looking at it closely as I degrease, and it looks like the sealing issue is only for a small part of the pan, the real problem is actually the damaged bolt flanges, as I keep peeling the grease back. I took a wire brush to it a few hours ago, and this really keeps becoming the greater apparent problem. Hopefully, tomorrow I will have a useful and serviceable pan and will present a pic here to see what folks think.

[Cheechako]

I think you need reinforcing like fiberglass or etc for the flange. I dont see just JB Weld at that right angle and thickness holding up.

[Cheechako]

Maybe something like this would work?

[Cheechako]

Maybe this

[SailingFan]

You may be onto something there. It is akin to something I was considering as well. I am unsure if I want to go that far, though, given the inherent weakness that I also believe JB Weld will bring to a thumper's sump. I am hoping that a thick coat of sealant will allow at least a minor amount of flexibility in the block/sump join.

For now, I am going to see if the JB Weld patch I made will harden and machine properly, and I will see as well if the St. Augustine shops have anything I can salvage to replace this pan. Who knows, it is possible one is just laying there someplace.

However, I also did source some sheet metal to create a totally new pan, if necessary. If that is the case, I will just fold it where necessary, build a thickness seam, and use sealer to make the seal. There won't be an oil drain plug, so changing oil will have to be done by pumping some from the dipstick tube to prevent flooding the bilge with oil each time, but at least it will be relatively simple.

I took some pictures of it, and will be uploading them shortly to this thread.

[SailingFan]

OK, no point in pics yet. Have to let the hardening finish enough to do the drilling for the holes (I have to keep emailing my phone pics to myself to get them on here, and right now it is just a gray sump pan with oversize flanges and very few flange holes present). I am going to drill them oversize a hair though, to reduce the potential sideways stress on the flanges when I bolt it up. It is a real pain in the butt to get them in while standing on your head, and a little sideways movement will allow better alignment I am sure.

I will show the result of the machining of those holes in a post later today (it is only 3:30-ish AM here and I have a 10:30 AM Dr. appointment at the VA, so I need some sleep..).

I am interested to see how well it machines because I have to sand the bearing surface first to ensure the holes are drilled in the right places on all those new flanges and the potential for chipping surely is present, and will give me an idea of how likely they will be to break under minor tension. Will actually be interesting to see how well it holds up to even that much abuse. If it does not work, it can serve as a lesson for those who follow this procedure so that they don't duplicate the failure.

Another thing I am going to do is machine some flats on the underside of the sump bolt flanges (they are currently gobbed with extra epoxy there in anticipation of creating additional reinforcement meat), with another steel washer between the rubber washer and the bolt head (ie., bolt head, steel washer, rubber washer, steel washer, black goop, pan flange, goop on pan and goop on block for gasketing, then the bolt is threaded into the block, which should create a shock mounted affair on each bolt for uniform tension all around but not a hard lockdown on the bolts themselves against the potentially weak flanges).

Not all the flanges are weak, by the way, most have at least some aluminum structure on them that a bolt would normally lock onto. There are two or so that are pretty much gone, however, so I am creating them from epoxy, which will be drilled in my photo upload today, to accept this arrangement.

Hopefully it will not initiate leaks or make the sump/block join too weak. My intention is to allow the goop to seal the join but also fill the bolt holes around the bolts, and the rubber washers will cushion them so that I don't have to tighten them so much to get a good seal. Has anyone tried to do this that way, or am I the first fool? I can see that I have effectively doubled (and more) the sealing surface on the pan side, so that is a win if it remains intact in use.

By the way, I know this is not kosher, or even typical, but I have doubts that I will otherwise find a pan short of just casting one outright or folding one from sheet metal. If I cast it, I will have to do the entire layup. Not a huge deal, but I am not set up for that in my apartment! I don't mind making a sheet metal one, but if I can do it this way and be ok until I find a real one, or until I change out the engine, I am ok with that.

[SailingFan]

OK, update...

Here is the mounting surface of the newly "reconditioned" sump pan for the Yanmar SB8 currently lurking in Equinox. The sealing surface has been extended to full width or more in all parts of the pan, and the holes are now all present for the bolts to go through. I also did a little grinding on the reverse to ensure bolt heads and washers had something flat to sit against. I think this should work.

After we bolt it back up, I will let you know how it goes. I am afraid pics are difficult (of the pan in situ) because it is hidden in a tiny space and difficult to access. The '78 Hunter 27 does not have a large engine space by any measure.

I still think that a reservoir in another location would be a better means of handling oil, but that is me. Maybe Yanmar thought it would introduce additional failure modes (leaking hoses and fire risks, etc.) so I suppose I have to rely upon techs from 1978 on that one.