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Old 30-03-2015, 19:08   #16
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hmmm.... You keep me thinking!!! As I understand the bigger picture regarding the fuel system, when the engine is not running, the governor is left wide open so that when the starter kicks in full fuel is automatically sent to the injectors. Then once the engine is running the flyweights throttle back the governor to the idle setting.

So what is the benefit of having the throttle at 1/3 to 1/2 to start the engine....other than to keep it from idling back right away. Or...are you suggesting this just for just that reason on our initial start up to prevent the automatic idling back of the fuel system, thereby allowing us to control the fuel delivery decrease? That way we can idle the engines back slowly to see if the idle settings are too low (or too high) and we now need to adjust the idle settings after all the tinkering that has been done?

I feel like a like a child that has been left a treat of some special knowledge, that I am not sure I understand...but have to explore! Just trying to clean up any loose ends before we attempt to rebuild the engine in the morning.

Also, thank you for the heads up on the placement of that stop arm. Now the proper arrangement of the springs makes sense and I can stop scratching a hole in my head, trying to figure out how the stop arm holds the control arm tab down!



Obviously I am getting tired.
Cheers, Rod
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Old 31-03-2015, 09:06   #17
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hi Rod,

Couple of "general" comments.....When the injection pump rack( controlled by linkage 18) moves all the way toward the front of the engine, the injection pump is in the "no fuel" position and the engine stops. When the rack is moved all the way toward the rear of the engine the pump is in the full fuel position and the engine is running at WOT.

When the engine is shut off, either by the stop lever or the electric stop solenoid, the fuel pump rack is pushed or pulled all the way forward until the "tab" on part 18 rests on the aluminum stop in the case and the engine quits. Now if the throttle lever at the helm is left in the idle position, there isn't much force to return linkage 18 away from the stop position to the run position, so spring 19 pulls the linkage back into the run position, but probably not far enough to go to wide open throttle. The engine might start OK in this position, but if the weather is cold or the condition of the engine and glow plugs a little off, it's better to advance the throttle a bit to get more fuel and make starting easier.

As you noted, if the throttle lever is advanced to 1/2 throttle or so, the rack may indeed go to full fuel, as there is no governor weight force to oppose it. Then when the engine starts running the RPM will head to WOT until is is grabbed by the governor weight force. When the RPM is stabilized, the force exerted by the governor weights and the force exerted by spring 25 are in balance and RPM is stable.

DougR
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Old 31-03-2015, 09:45   #18
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

HI Doug,
We rebuilt the governor this morning and the engine started, but it runs WOT and does not throttle back. Now ...it has been put back together with the hybrid parts and not the new Control arm and springs as they have not arrived yet. Based on your comments, my thoughts on the WOT issue could be,
1. An imbalance of spring force between the various springs, but most likely spring 25 or its equivalent 22 in the MD2030a system, such that they are not balanced with the fly weights, or
2. the fly weights are not engaging the sliding sleeve, possibly the key was not positioned correctly, or
3. is it possible that the cable controls on the outside of the engine had been radically changed to make the improperly sprung and jury rigged hybrid system work, and now we have re-configured and re-sprung it properly those control cables will need to be radically re-adjusted again, in an opposite direction.

or...?

Rod
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Old 31-03-2015, 11:47   #19
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

First thing to check is the injection pump rack...remove the electric stop solenoid and look in the opening where it the solenoid was. You should see the rear
end of the injection pump rack. Take a small screw driver and see if the rack is free to move front and back. When you activate the stop lever the rack should move forward, and when you advance the throttle lever the rack should move toward the rear. If the rack doesn't move freely maybe something got jammed upon assembly or maybe linkage 18 is too long....or bound up.

If the rack is free to move easily, you could start the engine and manipulate the rack with the screw driver and see if the RPM varies, but with the throttle lever at full throttle the rack should move to the rear, and then with the throttle at idle you should be able to push the rack forward.

With the throttle cable disconnected does the throttle arm spring load back against the idle screw? You might have to reposition the throttle arm one "tooth" on the shaft so that the spring load takes the throttle back to idle.

It is possible that the governor weights are not pressing against the sliding sleeve and therefore the sliding sleeve can't exert any pressure against the linkage and control it.

DougR
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Old 31-03-2015, 16:44   #20
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

HI Doug, We have checked all the springs, stop lever arm , connecting pins and sliding sleeve internally inside the timing case/governor and everything looks exactly as it should. However, the engine still races with no idling down.

Upon trying the screw driver test thru the solenoid, we found that the rack was locked solidly in the full fuel position. Only when the injector pump was loosened off was the rack able to be moved. So it appears the control arm is binding on something inside either where it connects to the injector pump, or along its path to the pump, when the bolts holding the injector pump on are torqued down. I am not sure how the guys that jury rigged this ever got it to work, but something is binding that control arm, or the rack when everything is torqued down. Note our best guess at this time is that we are dealing with a control arm from an MD2030b. It appears we will have to wait now until our real parts arrive from Sweden, via the US, Barbados and St. Vincent customs, and of course it is a holiday long weekend, to re-build the original regulation system designed for the D1-30a engine.

It may be that the bend in the end of the control arm on the MD2030b has a greater angle than the bend in the D1-30a Control arm ( it looks like it on the schematics) but that does not explain how the jury rig guys got it going in the first place.

Any Thoughts?
Thanks
Rod
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Old 01-04-2015, 06:51   #21
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Disconnect the control arm from the rack and allow it to drop down and rest on the bottom of the hole in the block. Then tighten down the pump without the control arm attached, and try the screw driver on the end of the rack. Still locked? Or can you move the rack freely without the linkage attached?

With the timing case tightened in place but the injection pump removed does the control linkage move freely fore and aft when you actuate the throttle lever by hand?

Is there anything that might have gotten between the linkage and the front of the timing case causing the linkage to be pushed aft? Like a misplaced stop lever..

Doug
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Old 02-04-2015, 19:55   #22
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hi Doug,
My apology for the delayed reply. The rack moves freely without the control arm attached, but the control arm locks up or is binding as soon as the bolts on the timing case get to within about a 1/4" of being tightened. We now think that the jury rigged control arm must have been bent, heated and bent, or cut and possibly welded together to make it fit and work the way they had it rigged. After all, it had been rigged so the stop lever was lifting the tab, rather than holding it back, and they had attached the throttle spring 180 degrees in the opposite direction to what it should have been. So there must have been other "custom" changes as well.

We think the control arm is binding on the opening in the block that it passes through to attach to the fuel pump. Possibly because it may have been bent in such a way that it doesn't work in the proper spring / stop lever configuration. Without a template or even accurate scale drawings of it, it is difficult to know how it was altered to bend it back. So it comes down to waiting on Volvo/ Fedex / Easter and St. Vincent customs (who are being very supportive and helpful. Seriously)

We are hoping the new parts will arrive Saturday or Monday at the latest. It really seems incredible that the jury rigged system even worked as poorly as it did.

Thanks for all your input, it has been really helpful, if not essential. I will keep you posted.
Cheers
Rod
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:11   #23
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

One last comment,

I Just had a thought. IF the stop lever is also a non standard stop lever ( it certainly doesn't look like the one in the schematics) by placing it above the Tab on the control arm, the bend upward on it would possibly contact the bock and lock the control arm down in the full throttle position. You can see the bend in the last picture of the close up of the inside of the timing case cover, the one you commented on about the lever needing to be "on top of the tab."

It has always struck me as odd that that stop lever didn't look anything like the one in the schematic. But then we have also discovered that many parts in the schematics look different from one engine design to another, yet they are EXACTLY the same Volvo part number if you want to them.

Back to head scratching.
Cheers
Rod
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:55   #24
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hi Doug, if I stare at this long enough... beside getting a headache...I think I may have found the culprit. Your comment about the lever on top may be the issue. Go to the last photo of the regulation system we attached further up in the thread.

Look at the length of the bend in the stop lever where it is holding UP the tab in the photo, by now placing the stop lever above the tab I bet that bend in the stop lever arm is almost even with the edge of the timing case cover and would contact the block when you attach the timing case cover to the block. We can try covering the end of the Stop lever in a black grease and see if any grease sticks to the block when we put them together! Also with the Throttle spring in itís correct position D, it would also be pulling against an immovable combination of the bend in the stop lever and the block, effectively locking the Control Arm against the Stop lever and block of the engine. IT would be the same whether the control arm is attached to the Fuel pump or not.

The Jury rigged throttle system would have worked in just the opposite direction. as shown in the photo, the jury rigged throttle spring would be pulling the tab and stop lever back away from the block, plus with the arm under the tab, that bend would could only reach the block after the control arm was allowed to move at least some distance ( maximum would be the distance from the top of the cast stop post to level with the edge of the casing, (less the thickness of the tab). With that bend in the stop lever ...... by placing it above the tab you effectively lose at least the length of the bend in the stop lever in potential movement of the control arm). My guess is the length of the bend is almost the same as the maximum possible travel distance of the control arm that would be measured from the top of the cast stop post to level with the casing edge less the thickness of the tab.



Arrgh!!!
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Old 03-04-2015, 15:36   #25
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hmmmm ..now it's me banging my head on the wall! Couple of questions..

Do you know what the RPM was when the engine was running "wot"? Perhaps it was running at some mid range RPM and not WOT, even though it was stuck.

Are the governor weights completely free to move, and the sliding sleeve totally free to slide fore and aft on the camshaft end...no friction at all..

When the control linkage moves toward the front of the timing case the rack moves toward "less fuel" so if the stop lever is above the tab and has the tab pinned against the aluminum stop, the engine should not run at all. Unless the linkage is too long..thus effectively holding the rack somewhere in the fueling position.



Does the throttle shaft have a slot and a dimple/center punch mark on the end?
Is the punch mark lined up with the pinch slot in the throttle arm?

How did you stop the non controllable engine?
Doug
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Old 04-04-2015, 16:46   #26
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

HI Doug,
First the good news. We have an operating engine that is running as you would expect.

Thanks to the determination of the manager, his mechanics and staff, and yourself we have pieced together a slowly unravelling chain of alteration, scavenged parts, and jury rigged fixes that have compromised this engine for the past 7 months. In the end we were very fortunate to have found a Northern Lights Generator (NLG) that had a blown piston (essentially a D1-30 Volvo) which we could disassemble and see how everything was supposed to fit, and determine what had been changed out, altered and damaged...but somehow jury rigged to work... sort of... and sporadically.

They replaced the regulation system with the one from the NLG which they new was factory spec and in "pristine condition", as well as the sliding sleeve which we recently found out had been replaced in Grenada with a seriously deteriorated, cracked and worn replacement. However, the factory spec NLG regulation system still did not work, the rack moved and the regulation system was known to be factory spec, so that led them deeper into engine. There had to be further alterations done to have made that jury rig system function even as poorly as it did. The decision was made to look into the fuel pump and sure enough it also had been opened at some point and altered. There was fresh blue Loctite on the screws. Inside they found more alterations, an arm that connected to the rack had a broken fork on one of its three prongs, and there was a plate or cylinder that was deliberately rotated 15-30 degrees out of factory spec and other alterations. The broken fork connects with the fuel system to the injectors and controlled the open fuel flow to injector #3, which effectively would starve that injector of fuel...hence the difficulty in getting this engine to start over the past 7 months.

This starting issue and intermittent sluggish throttle response had been diagnosed as all sorts of issues from a bad injector, to requiring a lift pump on the fuel lines, to a worn starter motor, bad fuel etc... Everything but the real issue...a totally botched and jury rigged regulation system and fuel pump alteration... that has cost thousands of dollars in attempted repairs over the past 7 months...all in desperation to have the engine running for the sale process last September.

Once the fuel pump was repaired and reassembled to the factory settings and the arm with the broken fork replaced....the engine started right away, and I am told it is running great.

It has taken a team of at least 6 parties and well in excess of 100 hours of combined time by yourself, the manager, several mechanics, the parts suppliers at Marine parts express, and myself; as well as some detective style questioning of the people involved in altering this engine in Grenada, to finally unravel the true extent of the botched repair and jury rigged system in this engine...all of which was supposed to have Fixed as a condition of the sale. It got fixed alright!

To answer a few of your questions, I do not know how fast the engine ran when it was wide open and uncontrollable, but to stop it they would crack open the injectors to starve it of fuel. I also do not have answers to the questions about the dimples / punch marks and alignment of the throttle arm.

At this time I have asked the manager to take a mid stream oil sample at the next oil change so we can send it away for analysis to get a better handle on the state of the engine. I have also asked for an oil pressure check ( the engine has no oil pressure or temperature gauges...which are next on my list) to see where the engines oil pressure is at. I am not sure if that sliding sleeve could have any part in maintaining correct oil pressures, but we need to know this information anyway.

For now thanks to your contributions and the determination of the manager to get to the bottom of this, and a good bit of luck in getting access to the NLG, we have an operating engine again.

Thanks, I will keep you posted of anything knew we learn.
I hope you are enjoying the Easter weekend.
Cheers
Rod
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Old 04-04-2015, 20:42   #27
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Hello Rod,
Well it's good to hear that things are looking up. It would be interesting to know what the original problems were that caused such a jury rigged system to be tried, but that's probably something that we will never know.

What is the name of the organization that you have been working with?

DougR
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:36   #28
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

HI Doug,
My catamaran is managed by TMM St. Vincent, the manager is John West and his team included John Jacobs TMM's mechanic and another consulting mechanic, as well as several other members of his staff who worked hard searching the internet and providing support. They have really worked hard to get this thing figured out. As they have stated it has been a real learning experience for all of them and very frustrating. They have never encountered anything quite like this. I must say, the more I work with the TMM crew at St. Vincent, my respect for how they run their business and look after my boat just keeps getting better.

I have attached a few pictures showing the proper layout of the interior of the timing case that came off the NLG fuel regulation system, which has pristine looking parts, as well as the a picture of the broken fork on the sliding rack from my D1-30a fuel pump.

I am told the strength of the OEM springs on the NLG regulation system were also quite different to the jury rigged stuff that was found in the D!-30a.

We will need to swap the NLG system out with the new Volvo parts when they finally arrive. But for now we think we have the jury rigged issues behind us and can move forward with a clear understanding of the D1-30a fuel regulation system and eventually a properly repaired engine.

Thank you for all your support.
Cheers
Rod
Attached Files
File Type: pdf NLG Timing Case.pdf (155.7 KB, 40 views)
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:37   #29
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Re: Volvo Penta D1-30a Regulation System

Sounds like a capable crew down there.

The difference in spring tension isn't too surprising. The spring tension in a gen set engine is frequently different from a propulsion engine because the gen set runs at a steady 1500 or 1800 RPM, and the governor spring tension is selected such that the engine responds to load variations as quickly as possible. That way voltage and frequency fluctuations are kept to a minimum.

Best of luck with it.

Doug
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