Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-01-2016, 09:04   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Well I finally got time to really dig into the perkins M20 thats on my boat.

The engine wont turn over via the nut on the crankshaft even with the injectors removed. I had flooded the injector holes with PB Blaster for 2-3 weeks and was still unable to get it to turn over.

I decided that yesterday was the time to tear it apart and see what it looks like on the inside. I pulled rocker cover, rocker arms, and the head off, and I now know why the engine wont turn over....

I've cleaned out all the gunk for the most part and filled the cylinders with a mixture of WD40, PBBlaster and Liquid Wrench. Hopefully we can salvage the engine and get her running by end of 2016!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20160103_161638.jpg
Views:	324
Size:	428.1 KB
ID:	116119   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20160103_161652.jpg
Views:	411
Size:	440.8 KB
ID:	116120  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20160103_161909.jpg
Views:	323
Size:	409.4 KB
ID:	116121   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20160103_163844.jpg
Views:	423
Size:	438.4 KB
ID:	116122  

__________________

__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 09:42   #2
Guy
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: So. Oregon, USA
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,308
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

How do the cylinder wall surfaces look? If that gunk left some pitting you are out of luck.
__________________

__________________
Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 09:56   #3
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,726
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

I would try ATF mixed with Acetone.. For me, its worked much better then WD40, PBBlaster or any other.
__________________
travellerw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 09:57   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Unfortunately time wasn't on my side and I was in a hurry to head out so I didn't look to hard. I do not recall seeing any pitting on the surface of that cylinder though but again I didn't look very hard. My focus was purely on getting it out and flooding with a penetrating oil.

I know for certain the middle cylinder looked fine. Next time I'm at the boat I'll be spending a bit more time cleaning them up a bit more in attempt to completely remove any remaining gunk particulate and resoaking. I'll also check for more evidence of pitting
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 10:03   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
I would try ATF mixed with Acetone.. For me, its worked much better then WD40, PBBlaster or any other.
Thanks!! That seems like an effective method from what I'm reading! I'll have to give this a try!

How fast does the acetone evaporate out of the mixture?
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 10:12   #6
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,726
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
Thanks!! That seems like an effective method from what I'm reading! I'll have to give this a try!

How fast does the acetone evaporate out of the mixture?
Not as quickly as you would think.. In your situation the ATF is the more important part. Even ATF by itself seems to work better then the true "penetrating oils". The Acetone just gets the creep started and reduces the wait time.

Plus the ATF has detergents that will remove some of the gunk and carbon.
__________________
travellerw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 10:23   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
Not as quickly as you would think.. In your situation the ATF is the more important part. Even ATF by itself seems to work better then the true "penetrating oils". The Acetone just gets the creep started and reduces the wait time.

Plus the ATF has detergents that will remove some of the gunk and carbon.
Very interesting! Will need to pick some up next time I'm at the store!

As for pitting, even if its present, wouldn't I be able to hone/bore out the cylinder or put in a sleeve?
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 10:59   #8
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,726
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
Very interesting! Will need to pick some up next time I'm at the store!

As for pitting, even if its present, wouldn't I be able to hone/bore out the cylinder or put in a sleeve?
I don't know about sleeving... but depending on how bad the pitting is, you could simply "rebore" if its within the allowable limit.

Not sure if you have the service manual. You can download it from my website if you need. Page 4-5 details the limits.
http://www.svpartyoffive.com/perkins_100.pdf

If it turns out that the engine is completely unsalvagable, all is not lost. You may be able to find a used Shibaura block that you can bolt the marine stuff to. The Perkins M series engines are based on Shibaura blocks. Complete engines come up on e-bay from time to time for MUCH less than rebuilding (like $2000+400 shipping). These blocks were used in tractors, chippers, pumps and generators. Google and Ebay are your friend, search for 103-6 or 103.6 perkins.
__________________
travellerw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:04   #9
Guy
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: So. Oregon, USA
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,308
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
As for pitting, even if its present, wouldn't I be able to hone/bore out the cylinder or put in a sleeve?
I thought you were just trying to get it running well. If you are up for taking the engine all apart you can probably fix just about anything.
__________________
Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:06   #10
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco and Australia
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 1,979
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
Not as quickly as you would think.. In your situation the ATF is the more important part. Even ATF by itself seems to work better then the true "penetrating oils". The Acetone just gets the creep started and reduces the wait time.

Plus the ATF has detergents that will remove some of the gunk and carbon.
I've always used atf to final clean engines and heads before assembly. ATF on a clean white rag will lift and show any dirt, grit or honing grit. It's amazing how some people are prepared to assemble an engine full of grit and then wonder why they have a smoky result.

If the piston tops and bores are pit free you might just get away with a lightweight topend rebuild. You need to use lightweight magnification, not the mark one eyeball, to look for pitting though.

I've never been a fan of top end rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 13:46   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
I thought you were just trying to get it running well. If you are up for taking the engine all apart you can probably fix just about anything.
Good point. I am just trying to get it running

I don't necessarily want to pull it all apart, however if that's required to get it to run again, than I shall. If I can get the pistons to break free and everything else turning over I'll try to fire her up and run her as is and them go from there
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 23:03   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Well ive gotten 5 of the 6 valves on the cylinder head freely moving! They were all frozen shut. One still is but maybe a couple more days of soaking will change that or a soak in atf/acetone mixture when I get around to buying some atf will solve that.
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 17:34   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: '76 Bristol 27
Posts: 174
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

So i'm going nuts here.

I've heard that these engines were mass produced and widely used OUTSIDE of the marine industry. I've had TA Diesel tell me that these engines were NOT used in anything but the Marine industry.

Its a Perkins M20 which is for sure, and everything i see, the Perkins M20, Perkins 103-06 were strictly marine based engines.

I can see that the Perkins 103-09, 103-10, 103-15 were in fact used in the agriculture business but these are not the 103-06 engine.

Does anyone, have any advice on what sort of tractor the 103-06 was used? I would assume it would be some Massey Ferguson tractor, but which one I have NO clue.

Or does someone have any information on what the engine number is that is NOT the marine based one?
__________________
chowdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:55   #14
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,726
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

You will find your gold here... Its an Shibaura E643

SailNet Community - View Single Post - volvo engine vs yanmar engine

However, I have had limited results with the New Holland dealers.. Perkins is doing a hell of a job controller parts for these motors..
__________________
travellerw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:26   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 1,106
Re: Perkins M20 - Removed head and this lovely sight presented me!

Well, starting from the beginning, that fluffy white stuff on top of the pistons is oxidized aluminum, probably from seawater, but could be from condensation in an engine that has been sitting for a long time. My guess is that even after you get the engine turning the rings are going to be corroded into the ring grooves, which will necessitate pulling the pistons out and unsticking the rings at a minimum, and probably replacing the pistons.

On a diesel engine the cylinder wall surface is crucial for the engine to make full power, any pitting is bad, though sometimes an engine will run reasonably well with minor imperfections. Since the cylinders are cast into the block generally you just get the block bored and honed. I'm pretty sure pistons are available in .25 and .5 mm oversize.

The good new is that these engines are used in a wide variety of applications, the important part is identifying which one you have. I was under the impression that the m20 was an ISM/Perkins 103-07, but I could be wrong. The actual engine number, be it 103-06 or 103-07 may be cast into the side of the block, a sure fire way is to measure the piston diameter, the 103-06 is 64 mm, the 103-07 is 67mm.

Many of the parts between the -06 and -07 will turn out to be interchangeable, a copy of the service manual, http://wilfredmacdonald.com/parts/perkins.pdf
and a set of calipers is a good way to start figuring out which ones are and which ones aren't...

A lot of these engines, in variety of sizes were used in AC units for 18 wheeler reefer units and medium big lawn mowers, parts are everywhere and are available in original and aftermarket. The supply seems a little confusing, I suppose because of the many applications, but a few phone calls to different parts suppliers should eventually get you in touch with a knowledgeable person. Perkins prices are generally reasonable, try and stay away from strictly marine suppliers. As an example my first search for '103-07 piston' turned up a piston for 76.00 US
__________________

__________________
jimbunyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
head, perkins

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale or Trade: Westerly Centaur - well presented - 12,000 OBO bbowers2004 Classifieds Archive 4 22-07-2014 14:19
Replacment for Perkins M20 RKurosu Engines and Propulsion Systems 1 17-03-2012 13:07
Perkins Perama M20 Replacement russcannell Engines and Propulsion Systems 11 04-06-2011 18:45



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.