Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2011, 14:09   #166
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
MOP......
I'll have you know thats a delicate sophisticated and highly sensitive wind speed/angle instrument...
I thought she was just called Darlene....
__________________

__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 14:33   #167
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Fun video -- the slomo in particular is very nicely done -- but we don't know from it anything about your progress, if any, to windward.

From the sea state that's a Force 5 in which even a Flicka should be able to sail. But you will not get anywhere near to the wind at that heel angle and with that oversheeted jib. You say your boat loves to have the rail in the water, but that is nonsense - no boat does. At that angle of heel neither the keel nor the sails will work properly, you will have strong weather helm, which means your rudder will be acting as a brake. You will be making a ton of leeway (even more than usual for a full-keel boat), which will further widen your tacking angle. A clumsy configuration.

The luffing mainsail I will discount - I guess the camera caught you at an odd bad moment. If the mainsail were luffing like that the whole time you would not be doing even the 5-odd knots depicted.

But no, I would not hire you to sail me off a lee shore, sorry. Nor to give lectures on seamanship.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now  
Old 28-11-2011, 17:02   #168
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan
.

25 gusting to 30 knots, mixed west and southwest swell, short period and breaking. I'm in 200 feet of water, about 10 miles out of MDR, off of m
Malibu. As usual, no other boats were out. I'd estimate the biggest waves at around 10 feet this day, but I've given up on estimating wave hieghts at sea, because there is no fixed frame of refference. I can tell you that they were much larger than they appear here, as ever with film.

That's my 80% working jib and 1 reef in the main, close hauled under autopilot. She is making about 5.5 knots, and as you can see, she absolutely LOVES having her rail under, and is a JOY to sail under such conditions.

no engine, she beat out there against those confused seas and strong winds.

<snip>

My Flicka?

rode like a duck.

I dont bullshit.

...and there is a "sail zone" up the main chanell at MDR where you sail, and power "lanes" to either side -

If you vist, please keep the "no sail" bouys to port entering and exiting under power, so I dont have to tack to avoid you.

;-)
After all the statements you've made it is pretty brave to post this video for the critics.

Wind speed no higher than 15 knots. At 20-25kts the spray breaks off the chop.
Sea height? No higher than 1 meter if that.

Unfortunately in my opinion this is not scary, difficult or rough seas. It's just a day of sailing. It looks like fun but hardly challenging in any way.

Also I have sailed MDR. You are probably not more than 2-3 miles out. In regards to sailing in and out of MDR you are fully within your rights to do so. I've sailed in and out a few times. The annoyance is the boats powering that don't stay in the motoring channel.

The slow motion spray off the bow is nice but also normal. This is definitely not water over the decks or anything like that. When you hit the bottom of a trough and the bow disappears, that's water over the deck.

I am not criticizing the Flicka - never sailed one. It looks like a fun little boat and you are obviously having a ball with her. From appearance I just wouldn't put her in any performance boat category. I also won't criticize your sail trim, we all can do better and IMO it only counts for real when racing or if you are flogging sails. I would only recommend you download a couple of good sail trim guides, I like the North Sails stuff and do some reading and practicing.

Every time I have sailed SoCal I have enjoyed 10-15 knots sustained. The best thing you could do for your boat is get a couple of crew on the rail to flatten her out a bit. That will allow you to carry the same sail with less heel.

Here is Relax Lah crossing the Singapore Straits shipping lane at 6.4 knots. Maybe 12 knots wind speed. Full sails up but if the winds got any higher I would start reefing as we are essentially at hull speed and any more power would simply heel the boat more and increase set to leeward. Note I have all the crew on the rail (although not hiking hard yet) and everyone except me on the high side.

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 17:39   #169
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,547
Images: 1
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Sorry its taken me a while to reply - I've been sailing the past four days straight, doing sea trials with my new outboard. It works great, and has tremendous torque.

That's the nice thing about living in Los Angeles. The weather and natural lanscape here is great, but the city....and Hollywood?

=(

Anyway, I've got nothing against J-boats, except that thier rigs, rudders, and keels seem a bit spindly for offshore work - a couple of years ago one sank during the Baja haha rally after striking a whale.

Seems the rudderpost tore out, leaving a huge hole in the stern, which sank the boat in about 40 minutes, fortunately giving its crew time to climb -up - into thier life raft.

The USCG recieved thier EPIRB mayday, and reached them about 4 hours after the masthead dissapeared below the waves 250 miles south of San Diego.

Seems the speed of the boat and efficiency of its keel worked against it in this instance. Winds were around 30 knots, they were headed downwind, and were surrounded by a pod of whales. A sensible move would have been to reduce sail and heave-to, but then again, J-boats dont heave-to very well do they?

I'm pretty sure my Flicka would keep her rudder if she struck a whale at any rate - then again, losing her rudder wont sink her since its keel hung on a set of bulletproof bronze grudions and pintles. She's also considerably slower than a J-boat, much more heavily built, with a full keel, and has less mass, meaning any impacts will involve considerably less energy.

How many Flickas have sunk offshore - or inshore for that matter?

Flickas have been across all of the worlds oceans, repeatedly and around the Cape of Good Hope, and I'm not aware of a single sinking. Sure, people have managed to get into trouble in them - but then again, people got into trouble aboard the Titanic too.

I dont know about other Flickas, but tacks through 90 degrees with her 110 jib up, and again, I have the gps tracks to prove it - I can provide anyone who likes with a KML file of them if they like so they can view them in Google earth.

Maybe they have an all purpose roller furling headsail that's too light and sets poorly, especially when reefed. You know, a roller furling headsail and associated hardware, windage, and wieght aloft that hurts windward performance, especially when things get ugly?

lol....

With her 140 genoa up mine doesnt point real high, but she has a hell of a lot of power as long as I dont pinch or over-sheet it. She will carry that monster in 18 knots while still making some progress to windward, though again, its pretty ugly 45 degrees of heel, rail completely submerged, my books, girlfreind, and underwear flying around the cabin....but you never know where the upper limit is until you try.

That sail needs to be allowed to breathe, so I sheet it out a bit and foot off, trading pointing high for VMG to windward.

My 7.5oz, wire luff 80% jib can be sheeted inside of the shouds for beating when the going gets tough, and she points a few degrees higher than the 110 like this, as long as there is enough breeze to drive her (20 knots plus, with the main either flattened with the traveler down, or single reefed depending on the sea state, and how angry and bruised up my girlfriend is after I take down the 140.

Big seas are not a problem for small boats (long wavelength) small chop (short wavelegnth) is becuase of thier low resonant frequency.

Ever watch gulls or comorants sitting in the water when its rough? I do. I'm facinated at how they just roll over waves that are proportionally 100 feet high to them like it's nothing - while I'm getting absolutely hammered by the same 8 foot waves.

but once the get bigger than that.... things calm down, and the bigger boats start getting hammered - while I make tea and apologize to my girlfreind for the earlier mayhem.

Really huge breaking seas? Well, at least I can manuver quickly. Inshore, stay in port. Offshore, stand off, right?

Be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and stout ground tackle, properly set, with a looooong rode, basic seamanship, and sailing skills are your best bet, not a huge, cantankerous engine.

My ground tackle is capable of withstanding a working load of around 1.5 tons, and has a breaking strength of over twice that.

How big of an engine do you need to generate that amount of force?

Can you fit it on my Flicka and still keep the ability to sleep and store provisions for me and my woman?

I doubt it.

No matter how big of a boat you have, the ocean is much much bigger. The point at which things go bad is merely different, and thats not neccesaraly a good thing - especially if your big boat and big engine encourage you to take risks you wouldnt take in a smaller vessel or neglect to build and practice skills, like short tacking, that are basic and essential to competent seamanship.

Like I did all weekend against foul tides and shifting winds through the crowds in the MDR main channel - alone, both with and without the help of my autopilot.

Those skills, if kept sharp, will hold you in good stead when that big engine of yours quits while youre trying to enter some narrow reef strewn lagoon pass - a much more likely scenario than it saving you from a lee shore in a gale. I think engines make us lazy, overconfident, and complacent. They are useful for calms and for close quarter manuavering - but once you truly master prop-walk - and from what I can tell, virtually no-one in MDR even knows what prop-walk is, much less mastered it.

its useful for MOB situations in moderate conditions for an inexperienced sailor I suppose.

Oh, and when you have to make it to some pointless meeting on Monday so you can pay someone else for fixing, fueling, and maintaining it.

That's about it.

Overconfidence kills, not small boats or small engines.

Santa Ana winds blow from different directions and forces depending on the local topograpgy and meterological condions. There is a mild one blowing from due east right now - at least it's moderate here in Marina Del Rey.

They usually follow cold fronts, and they usually blow from the North-East, but you never know - they can appear litterally overnight out of nowhere, and they can be very dangerous.

And Santa Monica Bay is a bay, so yea, I know what "embayment" is. I'm always embayed until I beat out 15 miles or so against the 18 knot westerlies and steep chop that rake Northern Santa Monica Bay every summer afternoon.

Anchors, seamanship, storm sails and prudence - that's my point.

Auxilliary engines on sailboats should be seen as just that - auxilliary.

The most powerful sailboat engine is a joke compared to even a modest power boat engine, so if you really believe engines are your best hope in extremis, why not trade in your sailboat for a stink-pot?

You do know what a stink-pot is, right?

;-)
Holy Crap
__________________
"All men are created equal, some are just more equal than others"
cburger is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 17:51   #170
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That video.. my god, those Flicka's are s l o w . . . almost looked like slow-motion to me
Slow and wet.

Footing off in such conditions, I doubt I could come close to getting the rail down even with the main full out and the traveler full on.

Nice music, however. When I sail in Force 5, all I get is Classical.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 18:13   #171
Registered User
 
GeoPowers's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Gulfport, MS
Boat: Beneteau 393
Posts: 947
Images: 27
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Well, in this season of giving thanks, I will say that I am thankful for being introduced to the mighty Flicka. For a 20-fter the Flicka has a lot of charisma. I can understand the following, and I wouldn't mind cruising in one if we weren't a family of four. But...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogan View Post
I dont bullshit.








But glad you enjoy your boat!

Frank
GeoPowers is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 18:56   #172
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Your observation seems a little self-contradictory. If the boat tacks well, then she doesn't need to be back winded to make a tack.
What part of "light wind" did you miss there? There's absolutely nothing wrong with backwinding to tack in light wind. I successfully tacked a 37' ketch with an undersized headsail in about 2 mph of wind by backwinding. It's a useful tool.

As I'm sure you know, the Flicka has a full keel and a large rudder. I would EXPECT to backwind in light wind. It's a fine sailing boat and I don't understand why it's taking so much heat here.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 19:08   #173
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
As I'm sure you know, the Flicka has a full keel and a large rudder. I would EXPECT to backwind in light wind. It's a fine sailing boat and I don't understand why it's taking so much heat here.
It's not the Flicka taking the heat. It's just the rhetoric.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 19:43   #174
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Oh pls have mercy... full keels with stout keel hung rudders, backwinding to tack etc... reminds me of the traditional sailing barges in Holland.... could brew coffee while starting the tacking and finish drinking a cup before sheeting the jib over to the other side.

I would propose a sail on a J24 to get a feel for how modern designs behave in similar conditions for the folks who think this is performance with the Flicka's. I think they are pretty boats, but for performance they can't even dream of taking on modern designs, and that includes heavy weather performance. To keep the comparison with rubber ducks: less weight means less stress when being thrown about bobbing the big waves.

The talk about conditions on a lee shore in 20 knots of wind... this of course depends on so many factors, like wind wave, ocean swell, shape of the shore and seabed etc. In just wind wave I expect a Flicka to be able to make positive VMG. In heavy breaking seas, I expect it to be taken by the waves and put ashore, just like a rubber duck in the surf. Remember that only breakers can wash you away... with non breaking waves the water only moves vertically.
A 30' mast in big seas (20+ feet) is a problem because the waves block the wind. When this happens, you must use the engine to maintain steering and speed while adjusting sail area for the wind when sails are exposed to it. They would rip apart otherwise and this can happen so violently that it can take the rig down if there is a weak point somewhere in it.

I find it very normal to tack upwind in a channel. There is no reason to get upset about that and I always give way when I'm motoring in a channel and meet a tacking sailboat, even when I have right of way. Last time that happened it was Don Street on Little Iolair (no engine aboard) who tacked outwards through the reefs in South Grenada as I was coming in to St. Davids Harbour.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 19:49   #175
Registered User
 
Butler's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Boat: Pearson 281
Posts: 678
Images: 18
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

"After all the statements you've made it is pretty brave to post this video for the critics.
Wind speed no higher than 15 knots. At 20-25kts the spray breaks off the chop.
Sea height? No higher than 1 meter if that.
Unfortunately in my opinion this is not scary, difficult or rough seas. It's just a day of sailing. It looks like fun but hardly challenging in any way."

I have to agree with ex-Calif in the above quote Hogan. I've sailed a Flicka, a few other keel boats and a Thistle on Santa Monica Bay out of Marina Del Rey and King Harbor (I now sail out of L.A. Harbor) and those conditions on that nice vid look like one of the fun days off either of those harbors.
The Flikas a very pretty, the interior space is remarkable and they are the proverbial "brick house" but they do have their limits. I greatly enjoyed sailing her in the conditions you recorded so well and but there were moments when we were very happy to have that Yanmar 1GM10 and those moments weren't about a lee shore. I think the gaff rigged version gives her a bit more power and I remember Bingham writing that he thought the Flikas would do well as Cat Ketches but went with the sloop because he thought it would do better on the market with that rig wich leaves her a bit undercanvassed.
Glad you are enjoying her... they are sweet boats.
__________________
Butler is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 20:44   #176
Registered User
 
Hogan's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: La Paz - sorta
Boat: PSC Flicka 20
Posts: 87
Images: 11
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Sigh....

Ok, I admit it: I'm a liar:

wfhogan&#39;s Channel - YouTube

and I was unable to make way upwind here either:

wfhogan&#39;s Channel - YouTube

I have trouble reefing in 15 knots too:

wfhogan&#39;s Channel - YouTube

(Really, I was still perfecting it, and the boat can carry much more sail in the 15 knots you see here)

I'm a fraud, who hasn't logged over 4,000 miles out on the ocean in the past 2 years figuring out my boat, and a huge engine - not proper seamanship - is your best bet for saving your ass against a lee shore.

My first boat wasn't a Laser, and I didn't regularly solo it from Alimitos Bay to Wilmington and Hurricane gulch across the ports of LA and Long beach shipping lanes.

The Pardey's are irresponsible lunatics for advocating engineless crusing, and they lied - LIED about sailing Saraffyn, a 24 foot Lyle Hess heavy displacement cutter 44,000 ocean miles over 11 years without mishap or ship-wreck, through gales and calms:

| Sailing Blog | Lin & Larry Pardey

This Italian fool didn't sail a 21 foot light displacement racing boat - a mini 6.5 - around the world, solo, and non-stop, via the southern ocean clipper ship route rounding all the great capes either:

Alessandro Di Benedetto - Round the World

Robin Lee Grahm is a FRAUD - He never sailed his 24 foot light displacement sloop around the globe, starting at age 16:

Dove and Robin Lee Graham - The Voyage of the Dove Round The World

ooooohhh, and what about that con artist, Vito Dumas!:

Vito Dumas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No radio, no engine, IN THE MIDDLE OF WORLD WAR 2 via the southern ocean...

and of course, the biggest engine-less small boat circumnavigator of them all,

JOSHUA SLOCUM!!!!

1895, Gaff rigged oyster smack, sandbags for ballast, hemp cordage, cotton sails, and a rusty alarm clock for chronometer, he supposedly rounded all the great capes dogdging canibals wih carpet tacks in tierra-del-fuego, because the Panama Canal wasn't open, and radio hadn't been invented:

Joshua Slocum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No WAY he could have possibly done it! Those gaff rigs cant go to weather worth a damn! He made it all up.

You MUST HAVE A BIG BOAT AND A BIG ENGINE TO SURVIVE A GALE AT SEA. 100 feet is not too big - you'll be safer in a cruise ship, that loses its engines and turns beam to - like this one:



Yup - big boats and big engines, definitely are the safest, sanest, heck, the ONLY way to stay out of trouble at sea....

Either that, or most modern sailors have been brainwashed by the marketing hype of Catalina Yachts and think a 44 foot fin keeled coastal cruiser that lists for $400,000 (stripped) with a fat ass, high aspect multi spreader rig, a huge aft stateroom, flat bottom, no bilge, roller furling main and jib, and a 1000hp Cummins diesel stolen from a semi and shoehorned under the compaionway is a much safer boat than a little engine-less work-boat from the 1800s.
Hogan is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 22:00   #177
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Wharram custom 44'
Posts: 231
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Hogan, I have to agree with you. That video was great, I watched it and I thought about how the ocean and wind doesn't look so bad on tape as it does in real life. This seems to be the place where you post your post and wait for the aftermath. I took some pictures in high winds and could only look at the results later. Fortunately the camera wasn't destroyed. The pictures looked like nothing, a daysail on Central Park. I think I know when I see footage of strong conditions, and I like seeing them. When I see something really awesome, I know it is REALLY awesome. There is no limit what you can get out there. Your footage did not look like approaching 30, but it could be 15 to 20 or maybe 25, but not 30. When we are discussing how to tack or gybe in 30 knots, the conditions are not like that. Nor are we taking pictues. Good that you posted a video with good music, I bet you are not taking videos in 30 knots, ha ha.
__________________
kaimusailing is offline  
Old 28-11-2011, 23:56   #178
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Sigh....

Ok, I admit it: I'm a liar:
At the very least you seem more impressed with your self then others do.

By all means sail your craft around the world, come back and tell us about it. Perhaps you'll learn something enroute ... like humility?
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline  
Old 29-11-2011, 01:58   #179
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
At the very least you seem more impressed with your self then others do.

By all means sail your craft around the world, come back and tell us about it. Perhaps you'll learn something enroute ... like humility?
Personally I would find being called an out and out liar somewhat annoying. and would respond accordingly I take my hat off to Hogan for his patience with the nit-picking

Not to say that I never enjoy giving someone an internet kicking or a lynching .......but on this can't see why Hogan don't get the benefit of the doubt........it's not as if "the camera doesn't lie" is actually true
David_Old_Jersey is offline  
Old 29-11-2011, 03:25   #180
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,826
Images: 2
Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

IMHO allmost everyone got little carried away, and everybody's watching their boat throw coloured glasses so to speak.. Personnaly I don't believe none of the boats mentioned would do way against the weather when it gets really rough..
__________________

__________________
TeddyDiver is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.