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Old 13-05-2009, 19:40   #1
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Hybrid vs Diesel - Pros and Cons

I was looking at yacht world last night and noted a Lagoon 420 that was having it's electric drives refitted wiht Diesel motors... got wondering how these Hybrid drive Cats are performing and how well their owners like them now that they have been in use for a few years. The 420 (vs 421) is very high on my list just based on it's layout, but I understand it is something of a slug... One other Q, can these Hybrids run continiously under the power of the Genset or at some point must you charge up the batteries in order to run the motors. Finally any general opinions of the 420's is most apprecaited..

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Old 13-05-2009, 20:11   #2
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One other Q, can these Hybrids run continiously under the power of the Genset or at some point must you charge up the batteries in order to run the motors.
You run out of fuel sooner or later. I think they work fine if you don't motor too much. Diesel to battery and back to propeller takes a hit at every conversion. You can delay paying back the debt but not without the vig (interest).
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Old 13-05-2009, 23:19   #3
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There was a lengthly discussion on the Lagoon 420's a while back. See this link...........

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...fans-5250.html
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Old 14-05-2009, 20:11   #4
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There was a lengthly discussion on the Lagoon 420's a while back. See this link...........

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...fans-5250.html

Thanks, I actually posted a simular question there awhile back, but I think that thread got too big...

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Old 15-05-2009, 16:09   #5
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Some folks aren't too happy with the cruising speed - like 6-7 knots. We met some folks in Corpus Christi who have a hybrid Lagoon. While not unhappy with it, I'm GUESSING that that it didn't perform to their expectations?
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Old 15-05-2009, 20:48   #6
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Some folks aren't too happy with the cruising speed - like 6-7 knots. We met some folks in Corpus Christi who have a hybrid Lagoon. While not unhappy with it, I'm GUESSING that that it didn't perform to their expectations?

Ya, I am thinking it is really a motor sailer... I wonder how many solar pannels you would need to gen enough juice to run at least one motor for 8-10hrs a day... and then could you make 9-10 kts with one motor running... being able to motor sail with an electric motor would be great, no noise... I guess one good thing is that if you did hit something, you probably wouldn't do any damage... Still, the living space on a Lagoon 420 is unmatched by any sailing vessel I have seen, even up to 50'...

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Old 16-05-2009, 05:22   #7
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We live aboard a Lagoon 420 and are very happy with it. As I've commented many times on the long Lagoon 420 thread we've got just the boat we wanted. There is a trade off between living space and performance and the 420 certainly is biased towards the living space. So far we've sailed from the BVIs down to Grenada. The amount of time we've spent on anchor vastly outstrips the time we spend sailing so the trade towards living space has been the right one for us. Even when we sail we don't mind being a little slower than others (though not always the case). Gives us more time to fish and enjoy being out on the water.

The hybrid system works best on the longer trips when the diesel can be left off and we can arrive with full batteries (house and drive) and full water tanks. If we want the extra knot this costs us we can turn it off. However, we've never done this even though we've always had the choice.

The rig is a bit small for the boats size but the positives are that it's harder to over canvas and damage the boat. We have a Code Zero for lighter beam/down wind sailing for when we need the extra area. Haven't had to use it much.

Using solar to drive a boat is a tough equation to make work so we don't go there. We have solar to top up the house bank. The fridges are big power drains so until we figure our better insulation we still have to run the genset for an hour every few days. The neat thing is we can move the boat while doing this at little extra cost.

All in all we're very happy and having a hell of a time. Don't have to GUESS anything.
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Old 16-05-2009, 06:09   #8
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I have always wondered why Lagoon called their system a Hybrid, when it is truly an electric system - the diesel generator being used to power the batteries.

A true hybrid is a diesel electric, where the diesel drives a generator that powers the electric drives. - This is probably a much lighter system as there is not the need for the large number of heavy batteries, but there is a need for a heavier generator.
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Old 16-05-2009, 07:25   #9
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Hmmm. I would call what you are describing a diesel electric, not a hybrid. The concept of 'hybrid' when applied to cars usually means you have direct drive from gas/diesel engine as well as power from electrical engine when appropriate with energy captured from breaking, etc. However, terminology is often down to the user so in my mind it is better to avoid as much as possible. Your description of the 420 is also inaccurate. The drive motors are powered by a combination of batteries and/or 72V chargers. Depending on how much power you demand the net effect on the batteries either draws them down or charges them simultaneously. If the genset is not on then the batteries are the only source of power until the sails are put up. When sailing, power is subtracted from motion and is also used to charge batteries.
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Old 16-05-2009, 12:21   #10
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Originally Posted by capcook View Post
... I wonder how many solar pannels you would need to gen enough juice to run at least one motor for 8-10hrs a day... and then could you make 9-10 kts with one motor running...
1. Assume you can do 10kts using a 50KW motor - actually that Lagoon probably wouldn't do 10kts using 2 50KW motors.

2. Assume you can generate 1kwh per day, on average, per square meter of solar panel - actually probably a little high.

3. That means for 10 hours of run time you need 500kwh or 500 square meters of solar panel - probably need to add at least 20% for inefficiency.

4. To be on the safe side you also probably need batteries if the 10hours of run time is at night or cloudy days. Therefore add about 310 270 ah batteries.

5. Now because of the weight of the solar panels and batteries you probably are going to need more than the 50kw (or 100kw) to do 10 kkts so start the calculation over again.
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Old 16-05-2009, 21:01   #11
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We live aboard a Lagoon 420 and are very happy with it.
.

ESS105... Thanks, good to hear from someone with some actual experience on the boat. I surely does look like a great boat to live on, and I suspect I will also find we will be spending much more time at a location than going in between them...

Thanks again...

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Old 16-05-2009, 21:04   #12
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3. That means for 10 hours of run time you need 500kwh or 500 square meters of solar panel - probably need to add at least 20% for inefficiency.
.

Gosstyla,

Thanks for the computation... Ha, 500 sqMtr = > 5,300 SQFT ! I would have to make the sails out of solar pannels.... so much for that idea...

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Old 09-06-2009, 13:43   #13
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So after reading a good bit on this, my conclusion is that Electric power really doesn't have much of an advantage, if any, over Diesel. If you have to motor for more than a couple of hours you are still going to have to run a diesel engine (the genset).

Now, I know this is going to sound really paranoid, but would it make sense to install large diesels, say 70-100hp each in order to have real speed available if needed (out run a storm or criminals, paranoid part) ????

I wonder if you could make 18-20knts with two 100hp motors in a Lagoon 420...

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Old 09-06-2009, 14:28   #14
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My concern would be PARTS! Diesel parts are usually available in some way within a reasonable distance. What does one do for parts for these systems? Are they generic, and off the shelf kind of thing?
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Old 09-06-2009, 16:33   #15
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I wonder if you could make 18-20knts with two 100hp motors in a Lagoon 420...
There are going to be fuel capacity issues just right off. Just where will you put the twin 500 gallon tanks? Then we get structural issues mounting the engines, weight, and then eventually limitations of the hull speed. You'll notice the design of the power cats gets about as close to what you are talking about as practical. The addition of the sail becomes the problem - it won't sail well either.
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