Do engine fires happen? Naturally aspirated, small diesels.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You do realize I'm sure that "properly disposed halon" is sold back into the market place right ?

Quite true.
There are a few shops around my neck-of-the-woods that will recharge/refill your Halon units.
It's not cheap, but it is available.
A similar story can be said about R12 refrigerant, you can still get it with a license and in the 2nd world countries, (perhaps I should say "less developed",) it's still being produced/sold without restrictions.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by chrisr

regarding turning off battery switches : if you want to shut down all current in the system these days it will also be necessary to disconnect the solar panels

cheers,

True, That's why I have "readily accessible" breakers for each of mine.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You do realize I'm sure that "properly disposed halon" is sold back into the market place right ?

Even though the manufacturing of Halon was globally banned, its use in existing systems is not banned, and it’s recycled for critical users.
The Halon Alternatives Research Corporation [HARC] was formed, in 1989, to help aid in the development, and approval, of environmentally safe halon replacement.
HARC also created a Recycling Code of Practice* that provides guidelines for companies to recover and recycle Halon 1301, in a safe and environmentally responsible manner.
* “Code of Practice for Use of Recycled Halogenated Clean Agents”
➥ https://aaa94fef-0623-4c29-b6fd-b8e7...750f544f1b.pdf

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

...
A similar story can be said about R12 refrigerant, you can still get it with a license and in the 2nd world countries, (perhaps I should say "less developed",) it's still being produced/sold without restrictions.

Although it's not produced* any more, DuPont’s “Freon” R-12 [Dichlorodifluoromethane] is still being recycled. It's being pulled out of older cars and refrigeration units, cleaned*, and sold back to customers, who still want or need it.

* Under the Montreal Protocol [1987-1989], its manufacture was banned in developed countries (non-article 5 countries) in 1996, and in developing countries (Article 5 countries) in 2010. The Protocol is one of the rare treaties to achieve universal ratification, and it continues to provide an inspiring example, of what international cooperation, at its best, can achieve.

* Buying recycled R-12 is somewhat like playing roulette. You are never assured of the quality of the product you are putting in your system. Recycled R-12 must be free of oil, moisture and Non Condensable Gas.
Some re-cyclers may clean and filter the old R-12 before reselling it. Others will simply sell the stuff, as is, with all kinds of contaminants in it.

[NorthCoastJoe]

Responding to a fire, our engine ignited a diesel leak. It was a good thing we were able to extinguish the fire engine on fire 🔥

A return hose met the exhaust manifold at the head. Needless to say we were out of service.

So yes it can happen.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Under the Montreal Protocol [1987-1989], its manufacture was banned in developed countries (non-article 5 countries) in 1996, and in developing countries (Article 5 countries) in 2010. The Protocol is one of the rare treaties to achieve universal ratification, and it continues to provide an inspiring example, of what international cooperation, at its best, can achieve.

I'll stand corrected, I was under the impression that in some places they were still producing it, (the swath of countries from India thru S.E. Asia come to mind).
I must say though, phrases like "inspiring examples"/"at its best" read more like optimistic ad copy than hard reality.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by GordMay

... Under the Montreal Protocol [1987-1989]...The Protocol is one of the rare treaties to achieve universal ratification, and it continues to provide an inspiring example, of what international cooperation, at its best, can achieve...

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

...
I must say though, phrases like "inspiring examples"/"at its best" read more like optimistic ad copy than hard reality.

Well, even bonobos can do it.
Bonobos and chimpanzees both share 98.7% of their DNA with humans; making the two species our closest living relatives.

Co-operation may be as inherent to human nature as conflict.

Bonobos commonly co-operate, and share with other bonobos, outside their core groups, and a new study [1] has determined this phenomenon is 'neither rare nor opportunistic.'
The study [1], about bonobo social behaviour, published in the journal Science, shows that bonobos make a habit of forging outside alliances, sharing resources, and exchanging services.
Between 2019 and 2021, the researchers [Martin and Samuni], with the help of local villagers, observed these cross-group interactions, again and again. The bonobos forged alliances, picked parasites out of each other's hair, and shared food.
Bonobos already have a reputation for being non-aggressive. One 2021 study [2], cited in the research, shows that two female bonobos, from a different population, even went so far as to adopt infants from outside groups.

[1] “Cooperation across social borders in bonobos” ~ by Liran Samuni & Martin Surbeck
➥ https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adg0844

[2] “Two wild female bonobos adopted infants from a different social group at Wamba” ~ by Nahoko Tokuyama et al
➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83667-2

[sailorladd]

Over forty years around diesel engines and boats and never heard of a diesel engine causing a fire (propane is another story all together)

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Jeff on Aurora

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of an engine compartment fire caused by a small (say under 100-ish hp) non-turbo diesel on a sailboat?

I'm about to replace the the 20 y/o Fireboy automatic halon extinguisher in my engine compartment. Wow! Talk about sticker shock!! A new extinguisher and cable are almost $1k. I will spend the money to have a safe vessel, but there may be other issues to address where the money is better spent. I'm not feeling a huge risk of engine compartment fire.


Personally, I have first-hand knowledge of two engine room fires, but both were on large hp diesels (approx 45' sport fish boats) and turbocharger failure was the suspected source of ignition. One of these boats went from "Hey, do you guys smell smoke?" to a completely engulfed vessel in less than five minutes.

I have been around diesel powered sailboats for three decades and have yet to hear of a serious engine compartment fire. Sure, there have been plenty of fuel system leaks that resulted in a complete mess and the engine stopping, but none led to a fire. How would one ignite diesel anyway unless 1) fuel or compressed fuel vapor was spilling and 2) there was some very hot ignition source like an electrical fire?



Thanks in advance,


Jeff

I put a fire extinguisher port in on the engine room bulkhead. Never had to use in the 20 yrs of my ownership.
FIRE PORT Fire Extinguisher Access Hole Boat Put Out Fire White Plastic /Ebay or Amazon 10 to 12$$

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Installing a fire port (about $15) rather than an automatic system in the engine compartment meets ABYC Standard A-4 Fire Fighting Equipment.

It meets the standard. But a serious question is, is the standard enough? In many cases, ABYC is a very robust standard, and meeting it is more than sufficient. I'm not convinced it is here -- I believe that ABYC was probably swayed in this standard by struggling with the cost/benefit, since establishing a standard so expensive that only the rich can boat is not appropriate.

In order for the fire port to do the job, a user has to identify the situation (enough smoke to notice?), go below, look in the fire port, see the fire, grab an extinguisher, insert it, activate it, and spread dry chemical powder all over (and inside) your engine. And then, the real key, hope a dry chemical extinguisher pushed through a single point with little or no "aiming" is sufficient for the task.

An automatic system will identify the fire, activate, has a high probability of extinguishing the fire, and will "notify" you by shutting down the engine.

There's no question an installed system is significantly better than a fire port. But there's a big question of the cost/benefit. If it is overwhelmingly better at fighting a fire with zero risk of occurring, it's not worth it. Neither of those factors are completely true, so the cost/benefit is a factor.

[Bill Gibbs]

I had such a fire. A 25 hp Nanni/Kubota diesel. Black smoke billowing out, a small flame under the engine, easily knocked down with our fire extinguisher, but restarted. The battery disconnect switch was on the forward bulkhead of the engine compartment, and inaccessible during the fire. Luckily the battery was directly underneath and I disconnected it. A metal fuel line under the engine corroded out, dumping diesel into the bilge, and there was a starter battery cable run under the engine that had chafed thru on an engine mount and was sparking. No hull damage. Fire extinguisher cleanup and secondary corrosion damage were bad. I replaced the engine.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Pete7

In addition we have a good selection of AFFF and CO2 extinguishers on board, plus a bucket and a liferaft.

Be aware, AFFF is a "forever chemical" -- it essentially never degrades. The US Navy is struggling (and spending considerable money) to eliminate it from their inventory. Of course, like all awful chemicals/products, it is awesome. PCB, DDT, Asbestos, Roundup, the list goes on!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

It meets the standard. But a serious question is, is the standard enough? In many cases, ABYC is a very robust standard, and meeting it is more than sufficient. I'm not convinced it is here -- I believe that ABYC was probably swayed in this standard by struggling with the cost/benefit, since establishing a standard so expensive that only the rich can boat is not appropriate.


In order for the fire port to do the job, a user has to identify the situation (enough smoke to notice?), go below, look in the fire port, see the fire, grab an extinguisher, insert it, activate it, and spread dry chemical powder all over (and inside) your engine. And then, the real key, hope a dry chemical extinguisher pushed through a single point with little or no "aiming" is sufficient for the task.


An automatic system will identify the fire, activate, has a high probability of extinguishing the fire, and will "notify" you by shutting down the engine.


There's no question an installed system is significantly better than a fire port. But there's a big question of the cost/benefit. If it is overwhelmingly better at fighting a fire with zero risk of occurring, it's not worth it. Neither of those factors are completely true, so the cost/benefit is a factor.

Sure, if one has the space and dollars, go for the auto system.

After thinking about the last time we entered at West Palm and were passed by three 60' Sportfishers with transoms buried so deep we couldn't see their names ... I personally would bypass the auto-shutdown feature.

[Jetx]

How about the new (ish) Blazecut type extinguisher tubes?

As I understand it, they don’t satisfy regulatory requirements, but should provide a very real safety benefit as a supplement to the required minimum number of (conventional) extinguishers.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sure, if one has the space and dollars, go for the auto system.

After thinking about the last time we entered at West Palm and were passed by three 60' Sportfishers with transoms buried so deep we couldn't see their names ... I personally would bypass the auto-shutdown feature.

As I stressed in my first post, there is a significant cost difference, and the benefit may not rise to the cost, however, I believe an installed system is significantly better. My boat came with an installed system, but I'm not sure how I would decide if it were my cash on the line.

Oh, auto shutdown isn't necessarily a feature (I know, some have this, but with many engines that's not an easy implementation). It's an effect. If you flood the engine room with any fire-extinguishing agent (Halon, CO2, or dry chemical), there is a high probability that the fire in the cylinders will be extinguished -- and the engine will stop rotating.