Which cat for live aboard with 120,000 US budget

[Beach Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Uh huh.
Wonder why?
Wildcat comes to mind.

The company closed when Endeavor could no longer handle building the number of boats on order. Victory found another builder, but had production problems, so they just decided to close. They have been out of production since 2002.

They are a very well built boat.

[mikereed100]

Charles Kantor has some comments worth reading concerning the Victory in his recent book.

[jzk]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Charles Kantor has some comments worth reading concerning the Victory in his recent book.

Any idea as to what those might be?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by jzk

Any idea as to what those might be?

His book 'Cruising Catamaran Communique' is very good, and I think every cruising catamaran sailor should have a copy. For those wishing to buy a smaller cruising catamaran on a limited budget, it's a gold mine. He is an experienced surveyor and discusses many boats of interest to those seeking to buy a small used cat.

[sandy daugherty]

In his previous book Charles Kanter mentions the Victory 35 several times, and describes it as a 'class5' or solid cruising machine. He says "It is an exceptionally comfortable cruising vessel that also sails reasonably well."

I thought the one I looked at was built to the same level of quality as my PDQ, with even heavier layups, and a very nice helm position. It would be a perfect liveaboard for a working couple. I'm guessing there were 33 built.

He down rated its windward ability [because of its high freeboard] and docking maneuverability because of the single engine, but noted that the sonic leg can be skillfully used to access some tight corners; but that having two engines is easier. I had a single engine cat before my PDQ, and it was as easy to maneuver as a ski boat.

[rossir]

does Kanter also comment on the Gemini?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rossir

does Kanter also comment on the Gemini?

Yes, as I recall he likes it. He has drawings and comments on many many boats, especially smaller ones. Don't forget that the Gemini has no core in its hull layup (it has core in the deck,) and will definitely sink if holed or overturned.

[sandy daugherty]

Charles Kanter published Cruising in Catamarans in 2002, and the index has 15 entries for various models of the Gemini. Charles is a frugal person, and recycles text. This book is largely a collection of things he had written in the past. I think he might have worn out his cut and paste button. To summarize, he points out that the boats have always been built as the 'the most boat for the money' and cautions the reader not to compare it to boats with higher standards of finish and component cost.

Two remarks stand out for me: "It is not the fanciest nor the fastest (but quite possibly the fastest and most weatherly in its size class.) It is a reasonable boat that will meet the real sailing needs of many potential cruisers." and "I must note that an overwhelming number of the persons that buy Gemini Cruising Catamarans are retirees or life sabbatical types whose basic interest are going someplace, doing something and living aboard, they are not sailing afficionados per se."

As I do, Charles admires the kickup rudders on the 3400 and the 105. I wish more builders could produce centerboard rather than dagger board boats.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by BigCat

. Don't forget that the Gemini has no core in its hull layup (it has core in the deck,) and will definitely sink if holed or overturned.

I spoke to a Gemini owner who had seen a friends ( 3rd hand I know )Gemini take a prop from a backing power boat at the waterline slightly aft of midships. It tore a pretty good gash and when the owners went to the boat it was floating with the hull having water to almost bridgedeck level. Ruined the galley of course. Damage yes, sunk, no. Don't know if it was a 105 or a 105M or a 105Mc I do not believe it was hanging on the dock lines . The hit and run was confirmed by surveillance camera!!

[sandy daugherty]

The 105 series can be certified as CE Ocean, (required to sell a new or used boat in Europe) which requires meeting certain bouyancy requirements. To do so, some details need to be added, including a 10" step up entering the cabin from the bridge deck, but no structural changes are needed for the standard boat.
BigCat's "and will definitely sink if holed or overturned." theory is full of water!

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

BigCat's "and will definitely sink if holed or overturned." theory is full of water!

It has a solid laminate hull, so unless they provided buoyancy compartments or unicellular foam, it will sink. Fiberglass weighs 99 pounds per cubic foot, and sea water weighs 64 pounds per cubic foot. Anything heavier than seawater sinks.

[Islander]

It has 4 buoyancy compartments with inspection hatches, one at each corner. Most owners fill them with empty soda bottles or foam pellets for added security.

One new owner neglected to install the speed log when launching his 105Mc - he came back the next day and water was lapping the floorboards, boat was floating fine.

The hulls of a Gemini are solid glass, this is one of the cost-saving (i.e. price lowering) features. The two hulls and bridgedeck are a single layup which produces a very strong boat, no hull to bridgedeck join.

Cheers.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Islander

It has 4 buoyancy compartments with inspection hatches, one at each corner. Most owners fill them with empty soda bottles or foam pellets for added security.

One new owner neglected to install the speed log when launching his 105Mc - he came back the next day and water was lapping the floorboards, boat was floating fine.

The hulls of a Gemini are solid glass, this is one of the cost-saving (i.e. price lowering) features. The two hulls and bridgedeck are a single layup which produces a very strong boat, no hull to bridgedeck join.

Cheers.

Good news for those thinking of voyaging in Geminis.

[sandy daugherty]

I just had a nice note from Sue Smith. She confirms my recollection of construction on the Gemini Catamarans. Here are some excerpts:
" Just to cover the questions you asked - Gemini 105Mc has 1/2" end grain balsa core in places on the deck, and on the bridgedeck above the water. There is no coring under or close to the water line..... Indeed every Gemini 105Mc is built to CE standards of stability and buoyancy, and many other complex standards. The calculations are incredibly complex, however, it is worked out that Gemini has more than enough Buoyancy tanks, and other features that she won't sink, upside down or not. More than calculations, it has been proved ... (in real life) that she floats when dramatically holed.... The water comes to the second step going up the bridgedeck, with a slight list to the holed hull. If turtled there is still enough air to get out and for her to float. We have NEVER had a Gemini sink, in over 1040 boats and 30 years continuous production."
I can confirm that up to the date I retired (and I quit gathering accident data) there had been no report of a Gemini sinking.
Now who are you going to believe, the Builder, and a Fed, or a Realtor? Let he who has built a thousand cast the first stone!
But I am glad to here you've started construction, BigCat. Do you have some pictures?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

I just had a nice note from Sue Smith. She confirms my recollection of construction on the Gemini Catamarans. Here are some excerpts:
" Just to cover the questions you asked - Gemini 105Mc has 1/2" end grain balsa core in places on the deck, and on the bridgedeck above the water. There is no coring under or close to the water line..... Indeed every Gemini 105Mc is built to CE standards of stability and buoyancy, and many other complex standards. The calculations are incredibly complex, however, it is worked out that Gemini has more than enough Buoyancy tanks, and other features that she won't sink, upside down or not. More than calculations, it has been proved ... (in real life) that she floats when dramatically holed.... The water comes to the second step going up the bridgedeck, with a slight list to the holed hull. If turtled there is still enough air to get out and for her to float. We have NEVER had a Gemini sink, in over 1040 boats and 30 years continuous production."
I can confirm that up to the date I retired (and I quit gathering accident data) there had been no report of a Gemini sinking.
Now who are you going to believe, the Builder, and a Fed, or a Realtor? Let he who has built a thousand cast the first stone!
But I am glad to here you've started construction, BigCat. Do you have some pictures?

Since I said, 'unless it has buoyancy tanks...." I don't think I have been shown to be mistaken. I'm glad it has buoyancy, as that makes the boat viable as a budget voyaging boat.