What are the Slowest Cats?

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I agree on this comparison - given equivalent capability, living accommodation, overall design characteristics, etc I do believe the cat can be expected to be as fast, if not faster under most points of sail.

The main reason for this is the lack of a deep keel, inducing drag and adding massive amounts of weight.

It's tough to make a comparison with popular cruisers like Lagoons (for example) because there are no monohulls that can match that kind of living accommodation. The nearest I've seen are a few large motorsailers, and so far I've seen no evidence at all that any boat can match the combination of accommodation and sailing performance of those cats.

Not sure if I agree. Jeanneau 53 is priced 20 K or so lower than Lagoon 400, and I think would be faster on most points of sail, especially when loaded with payload, which it could carry more of. Only downside that is objective is the 2 feet more of draft... Living space I think is closer than you think- but obviously different. The master stateroom is nice IMHO.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Not sure if I agree. Jeanneau 53 is priced 20 K or so lower than Lagoon 400, and I think would be faster on most points of sail, especially when loaded with payload, which it could carry more of. Only downside that is objective is the 2 feet more of draft... Living space I think is closer than you think- but obviously different. The master stateroom is nice IMHO.

A jeanneau 53 does not have a bimini top or a top-deck cabin. In fact, almost no monohull in existence has a top-deck cabin, and also has a deeper draft -- all points you mentioned.

It's not realistic to find a monohull that matches a Lagoon for features, it is more realistic to find a catamaran that matches a given monohull for design features. The reason cats are so popular in the cruising category, despite their few disadvantages, is that there is no viable alternative - no other design in existence can match their benefits.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by ArtM

A jeanneau 53 does not have a bimini top or a top-deck cabin. In fact, almost no monohull in existence has a top-deck cabin, and also has a deeper draft -- all points you mentioned.

It's not realistic to find a monohull that matches a Lagoon for features, it is more realistic to find a catamaran that matches a given monohull for design features. The reason cats are so popular in the cruising category, despite their few disadvantages, is that there is no viable alternative - no other design in existence can match their benefits.

Jeanneau (or similar monohull) cockpiy passengers don't have to sit behind a high bulkhead, unable to see their destination. Their double berths are not all wedged in the end of a hull, surrounded on all sides by bulkheads. Steering their boats are not like driving a bus, but capture the "feel" of sailing.

You see, there are two sides. I would choose the jeanneau 100% of the time, and would arrive at all destinations faster than you on the Lagoon. But I respect the advantages of the cat as well.

It just sounds like you either 1. Are a catamaran salesman, or 2. Have never owned a sailboat before
Both are fine, and I wish you well with your Lagoon ownership.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Jeanneau (or similar monohull) cockpiy passengers don't have to sit behind a high bulkhead, unable to see their destination. Their double berths are not all wedged in the end of a hull, surrounded on all sides by bulkheads. Steering their boats are not like driving a bus, but capture the "feel" of sailing.

You see, there are two sides. I would choose the jeanneau 100% of the time, and would arrive at all destinations faster than you on the Lagoon. But I respect the advantages of the cat as well.

It just sounds like you either 1. Are a catamaran salesman, or 2. Have never owned a sailboat before
Both are fine, and I wish you well with your Lagoon ownership.

It sounds like you are unwilling to look at the question objectively, which is also fine! Sailing is not always a rational venture, and it probably shouldn't be made to be one.

Cruising and sailing are two different disciplines with only marginal overlaps.

[Dulcesuenos]

I had the great opportunity to see and walk thru/ over a newer lagoon 42 last month in kw. I think the closest monohull at the dock in terms of living space was a 75 irwin lol. I agree with Art that there's a difference between cruising and sailing bit disagree with mal. Have u ever been on a large cat? Our 32 has a twin that is in the port aft hull no difference than a aft berth on a say 38 packet. While the forward berths each contain a queen sized bed you can walk next two...

[Southern Star]

Malbert, it is obvious that you and ArtM disagree about the relative merits of these two boats. While in general terms, ArtM can be accused of being rather myopic and of overstating the benefits of catamarans, that is hardly grounds for your insulting suggestion that he is either someone who sells cats, or someone who has never owned a boat before. Indeed, that comment was not only rude but also incredibly arrogant: do you really believe that anyone who disagrees with your own assessment must be an incredibly inexperienced sailor, or a dishonest one who is making specious comments in order sell catamarans? Who gave you the final word on a decision that is almost completely subjective?

Furthermore, your own opinion is also somewhat myopic and one-sided:

1. You mention that the passengers in the cockpit of the Jeanneau don't have thier veiw blocked by a bulkhead. This is true, although it overlooks the fact that in benign conditions, passengers on the Lagoon can and often will sit forward on a level platform without any obstructions to their view; it also overlooks the fact that in bad conditions, passengers in the Lagoon can go below and have an onobstructed view forward and to the sides; it also overlooks the fact that the helmsperson on the Jeanneau is unprotected at the aft end of the cockpit (where there is more motion and more risk from breaking seas), whereas the helmsperson on the Lagoon is further forward, higher up and protected by a bimini; and it also overlooks the fact that the cockpit on the Lagoon is much larger for entertaining at anchor and, as has been pointed out, coverd by a solid Bimini. Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand that you might prefer, on balance, the Jeanneau in this regard; but surely you can see that your opinion in that regard is subjective and based upon your own weighing of the relative advantages/disadvantages of each layout.
2. You suggest that the double berths are inferior on the Lagoon as they are wedged into the end of a hull with bulkheads on all sides. In fact, the aft berths on the Lagoon are 'island' berths with much greater headroom than on the Jeanneau. Of course, even if the berths were surrounded by bulkheads, for sailing offshore that is probably a preferred and safer set-up - at least on a monohull - where lee-boards, or lee cloths may otherwise be required for safety due to heeling!
3. You suggest that steering a Lagoon 40 is like steering a bus - have you actually sailed one? Admittedly, one does not get heavy steering due to weatherhelm (which may be a joy to you, but not others), but the improved tracking due to two hulls and two rudders means that much less effort is required for the helmsperson (or autopilot) to keep the Lagoon on course. Again, one's preference is subjective and not absolute.

In the final analysis, there are pros and cons to each boat and one's choice should be informed by their personal preferences, the number of passengers they intend to carry, the amount of time they spend at anchor and of course, where and in what conditions they will typically be sailing.

Brad

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Malbert, it is obvious that you and ArtM disagree about the relative merits of these two boats. While in general terms, ArtM can be accused of being rather myopic and of overstating the benefits of catamarans, that is hardly grounds for your insulting suggestion that he is either someone who sells cats, or someone who has never owned a boat before. Indeed, that comment was not only rude but also incredibly arrogant: do you really believe that anyone who disagrees with your own assessment must be an incredibly inexperienced sailor, or a dishonest one who is making specious comments in order sell catamarans? Who gave you the final word on a decision that is almost completely subjective?

Furthermore, your own opinion is also somewhat myopic and one-sided:

1. You mention that the passengers in the cockpit of the Jeanneau don't have thier veiw blocked by a bulkhead. This is true, although it overlooks the fact that in benign conditions, passengers on the Lagoon can and often will sit forward on a level platform without any obstructions to their view; it also overlooks the fact that in bad conditions, passengers in the Lagoon can go below and have an onobstructed view forward and to the sides; it also overlooks the fact that the helmsperson on the Jeanneau is unprotected at the aft end of the cockpit (where there is more motion and more risk from breaking seas), whereas the helmsperson on the Lagoon is further forward, higher up and protected by a bimini; and it also overlooks the fact that the cockpit on the Lagoon is much larger for entertaining at anchor and, as has been pointed out, coverd by a solid Bimini. Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand that you might prefer, on balance, the Jeanneau in this regard; but surely you can see that your opinion in that regard is subjective and based upon your own weighing of the relative advantages/disadvantages of each layout.
2. You suggest that the double berths are inferior on the Lagoon as they are wedged into the end of a hull with bulkheads on all sides. In fact, the aft berths on the Lagoon are 'island' berths with much greater headroom than on the Jeanneau. Of course, even if the berths were surrounded by bulkheads, for sailing offshore that is probably a preferred and safer set-up - at least on a monohull - where lee-boards, or lee cloths may otherwise be required for safety due to heeling!
3. You suggest that steering a Lagoon 40 is like steering a bus - have you actually sailed one? Admittedly, one does not get heavy steering due to weatherhelm (which may be a joy to you, but not others), but the improved tracking due to two hulls and two rudders means that much less effort is required for the helmsperson (or autopilot) to keep the Lagoon on course. Again, one's preference is subjective and not absolute.

In the final analysis, there are pros and cons to each boat and one's choice should be informed by their personal preferences, the number of passengers they intend to carry, the amount of time they spend at anchor and of course, where and in what conditions they will typically be sailing.

Brad

Okay, no need for actual insults. We're all sailors here. Did not mean to be arrogant at all, but I just wanted to present a counterpoint to the "all monohulls are inferior to cats" sweeping statements from ArtM. Probably should have thrown a smiley face in.

You can re- read my posts to see that I concede several advantages to cats, and I was responding to someone who doesn't concede any advantage to monos. Of course my views are subjective, but never did I try to say that all monos are better than all cats in every way, which ArtM was saying as the inverse.

Yes, have cruised a couple of cruising cats, including Lagoons, on charters. Nice. But not the sailing experience I enjoy, and not worth the price difference over monos. As a liveaboard or dock/anchor platform, great. My main complaint about the "up saloon" on many cats is that the only sofa/settee is the dinette, and most monos also have a dedicated settee to lounge on separate from the dining table, which I feel is more comfortable. But I'm the kind of sailor who took out my steering pedestal for a tiller for better connection to the sailing experience...

Finally, my main point is that many comparisons by cat proponents seem to say "look how much more space a 40 foot cat has than a 40 foot mono." my point earlier was for folks to compare equivalently priced boats to make a true comparison. Hence a quick internet search comparison of a lagoon 400 and a jeanneau 53.

[Southern Star]

Malbert, while I agreed (and specifically stated) that ArtM overstated his case, he wasn't claiming that there are no disadvantages to catamarans - in fact he specifically referrred to a 'few disadvantages'. I just thought the suggestion that he must never have owned a boat to be unnecessary and inflammatory.

I should also say that your boat, a Luders 33, is one that I love. Having owned a Folkboat and an Alberg 30, both tiller steered and with many common design elements - full keel, spoon bow, relatively narrow beam, plenty of rocker, low freeboard (and a beautiful sheer) I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from. Without question your boat would have much more feel than the Lagoon - and than the Jeanneau, for that matter. IMO it would also be far better balanced and have a far nicer motion to windward in moderate to heavy seas than either of those boats. Frankly, the motion to windward of many modern monos is not much better than many catamarans - with minimal rocker, increased beam and flat sections aft, they tend to pound and to have relatively bad weather-helm once they heel past a certain point. I haven't sailed on a Jeanneau 53, but from appearances I suspect that it would have these traits to some degree and, as I say, be much less enjoyable to sail than your own boat in heavy conditions. Anyway, different horses for different courses and different strokes for different folks!

Cheers!

Brad

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Not sure if I agree. Jeanneau 53 is priced 20 K or so lower than Lagoon 400, and I think would be faster on most points of sail, especially when loaded with payload, which it could carry more of. Only downside that is objective is the 2 feet more of draft... Living space I think is closer than you think- but obviously different. The master stateroom is nice IMHO.

You're comparing a relatively fast cruising mono to one of the slower cats though.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You're comparing a relatively fast cruising mono to one of the slower cats though.

Correct. Just going with one cited as faster and better...

From what I have researched, I think your cat likely sails circles around most monos. Right?

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Malbert, while I agreed (and specifically stated) that ArtM overstated his case, he wasn't claiming that there are no disadvantages to catamarans - in fact he specifically referrred to a 'few disadvantages'. I just thought the suggestion that he must never have owned a boat to be unnecessary and inflammatory.

I should also say that your boat, a Luders 33, is one that I love. Having owned a Folkboat and an Alberg 30, both tiller steered and with many common design elements - full keel, spoon bow, relatively narrow beam, plenty of rocker, low freeboard (and a beautiful sheer) I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from. Without question your boat would have much more feel than the Lagoon - and than the Jeanneau, for that matter. IMO it would also be far better balanced and have a far nicer motion to windward in moderate to heavy seas than either of those boats. Frankly, the motion to windward of many modern monos is not much better than many catamarans - with minimal rocker, increased beam and flat sections aft, they tend to pound and to have relatively bad weather-helm once they heel past a certain point. I haven't sailed on a Jeanneau 53, but from appearances I suspect that it would have these traits to some degree and, as I say, be much less enjoyable to sail than your own boat in heavy conditions. Anyway, different horses for different courses and different strokes for different folks!

Cheers!

Brad

Thanks for the words on my boat! My statement WAS probably unncecessary, but comments like " no other design in existence can match their benefits" sound a bit lofty.

Indeed, my Luders features excellent storage, below average sized (but very usable) accomodations, and a hull designed for sailing, not around a cabin. Hence like you said, very little weather helm, and no tendency to round up, even at 45 deg heel angles in gusts. The only pounding episode ever was when I was thrown sideways off a wave onto the beam ends of the boat. In contrast, the beneteau 46 we once chartered in 2009 had amazing accomodations and was fast on a reach, but rounded up like crazy in gusts in the BVI due to broad stern. Folkboats and Albergs, mmmmm.....

I do really like that performance cat with twin tillers and carbon seats. Probably pretty fun to sail. And the new neel trimarans also look like they'd be fast and fun.... Anyone with experience in those?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Correct. Just going with one cited as faster and better...

From what I have researched, I think your cat likely sails circles around most monos. Right?

No, I would never do that!

[ArtM]

There's a whole separate thread on the topic, so I don't want to belabor it here - it's been belabored at least once before.

I said that no other design can match the combination of design and performance features of a cat - except another cat. Not intended to be a lofty statement, just a matter of fact. If this were not true, cats would not be such a popular cruising design.

I should elucidate that I'm talking about a "cruising" cat here - Lagoon or FP style. It's simply not feasible to build a monohull that would have similar features. There are some tri's that attempt it, but -- I don't know -- I haven't seen any great success in those designs.

I did fail to notice your point about berth's though - a good original point I've not heard before, and would not have considered since all the sailboat berths I've seen have been quite small and narrow, having never been on a boat longer than 41' or so.

There are a small number of monohull designs out there with enclosed top-cabins and shallow draft, but as far as I can tell they do not exceed and probably fall well below the sailing performance of a cat. I believe they are categorized as "motorsailers" for that very reason.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by ArtM

There's a whole separate thread on the topic, so I don't want to belabor it here - it's been belabored at least once before.

I said that no other design can match the combination of design and performance features of a cat - except another cat. Not intended to be a lofty statement, just a matter of fact. If this were not true, cats would not be such a popular cruising design.

I should elucidate that I'm talking about a "cruising" cat here - Lagoon or FP style. It's simply not feasible to build a monohull that would have similar features. There are some tri's that attempt it, but -- I don't know -- I haven't seen any great success in those designs.

I did fail to notice your point about berth's though - a good original point I've not heard before, and would not have considered since all the sailboat berths I've seen have been quite small and narrow, having never been on a boat longer than 41' or so.

There are a small number of monohull designs out there with enclosed top-cabins and shallow draft, but as far as I can tell they do not exceed and probably fall well below the sailing performance of a cat. I believe they are categorized as "motorsailers" for that very reason.

My point is that if you compare similarly priced production monos and production cats, there is no performance difference, except upwind, when the monos will be faster. The "faster cats" which are certainly not lagoons, are priced much higher.

Remember, an extra hull adds nearly as much weight as a keel, and comparable wetted surface, at least on a cruising cat. To have that amazing salon you have to add windage, lots of it, which saps windward performance and add leeway.

Bottom line, I won't dispute your accomodations claim, but I believe you are far overstating the performance of Lagoons, especially in light or moderate wind...

[Factor]

Originally Posted by malbert73

My point is that if you compare similarly priced production monos and production cats, there is no performance difference, except upwind, when the monos will be faster. The "faster cats" which are certainly not lagoons, are priced much higher.

.

A bavaria 42 costs more than my boat (when both are new) I can sail as high and fast, and off the wind go much faster.

For example - to refute your truism.

As for faster cats being more expensive - there is a near new Pescott Whitehaven bear me that is cheaper than a bavaria 42 - for example and it will blitz the bavaria on all points of sail, double the speed in some conditions.

Not picking on Bavaria, just using it as an example.