The remaining question.

[Canibul]

We keep talking Winnebagos and others here insist that their corvettes are better.

Show me the model you like today after it's spent 30 years in the ocean. Yes, Tony Smith has been building Geminis for 30 years.

Go look at the older ones. They're not hard to find, because they're ashore and not moving at all these days.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Canibul

We keep talking Winnebagos and others here insist that their corvettes are better.

Show me the model you like today after it's spent 30 years in the ocean. Yes, Tony Smith has been building Geminis for 30 years.

Go look at the older ones. They're not hard to find, because they're ashore and not moving at all these days.

I don't anybody's insisting just showing the pros and cons of the different models.
There are plenty of older model Geminis still cruising. In fact I know of one that probably has more miles on it than the average car and the original owner is still living aboard and sailing.


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[Canibul]

you know of one.
out of a thousand or eleven hundred made, right?

I ran across a number of Gemini 3400's while trying to find our own boat. I never saw one I personally would just buy and take across the Gulf Stream, though.

There were 27 of the Catalac 12Ms made. I talk about this model mainly because I own one of them. I would be talking without experience if I acted like I was an expert on the other models, or the Gemini's past what I found in an extensive, multi-year investigation. I really, really wanted to buy a Gemini 105MC.

There are still 25 of the 27 Catalac 12Ms going after 30 years. Do the percentages.

You seem to concentrate on how slow they sail. Well, I guess so. We averaged about 7.5 knots coming down here, mostly on one engine and the sails, with most of the wind about 45 degrees off the port bow for most of the trip. Directly in our faces for almost half of it. And if I had put another half million dollars into a boat like yours, I think I would expect something for that, too. We're talking 100K$ boats here. But when it's all said and done, a 15 year old kid on a bicycle on a beach road could outrun either of us under sail. I'm glad you like a slightly faster boat, and we are talking the difference between a brisk walk and a slow trot here.

[valhalla360]

A few thoughts:
- Gemini's have some coring in the decks (I believe Catalacs do also). The hulls are NOT cored.
- Stress cracks are common but generally cosmetic. Fiberglass can be strong enough for the job and still flex. Gelcoat doesn't like to flex.
- A Gemini without davits is a rarity. The only problems I've heard of are folks who put a massive dingy on them or had them out in really rough weather and they got swamped.
- The centerboards take only a modest amount of care. The leading edge gets some fresh bottom paint with the rest of the hulls (we usually don't bother trying to get the entire board repainted). One time, we did a little touch up with epoxy where the tips had been worn on the bottom a bit.
- The shallow draft is definetly a plus. Yes, you have to pull the boards and rudders up to get that (or more importantly, when you accidentally find yourself in 2' of water, they come up on thier own rather than finding yourself securely lodged on a sandbar). While manuverability is better with them down, the boat handles fine with everything retracted.
- We went with the outboard powered version as the stillette outdrive is the one part that does seem to be prone to unreasonable amounts of mainteance.
- Take the Yahoo group with a big grain of salt. This is where people go when they have an issue they are trying to solve. No 20-30yr old boat is going to be maintenance free. Avoid anyone who tells you different. And the vast majority are still out in regular use they are not sitting mothballed in the back of boat yards.
- The change to the Legacy to fixed keels is more about going after the charter market where they wanted to keep it cheap and simple.
- If you are living on board, I wouldn't count on much speed advantage with the Genimi. It will probably still point a bit higher but unless you live a very simple lifestyle, once you load her up performance won't be drastically different.
- Headroom is a little deceptive in the Gemini. We were worried at first but at 6'2", I find it's there where we need it. (ie: sitting at the dinnet, you don't have standing headroom but at the end of the dinnet, you do. I will admit, you learn quickly to make the transition by ducking first.)

I like the Catalacs also and in your situation (living in Europe) I would lean towards them because I believe they originally came from there so, they are likely outfitted with local equipement to local standards. Gemini's across the pond are more of a rarity and unless someone has converted everything over they are using a lot of North American bit's and pieces.

[weavis]

Gentle people.
Passions aroused on the subject of vessels close to the heart.

So we have established that a centreboard, or lack of, is not a loss to cruising. We have established that in the event of getting a Catalac that its built like an outhouse and will get you anywhere safely, albeit slower than a lighly laden Gemini.

So really, at this point it comes down to personal preference and observation of the specific vessel at the time.

Im seeing good and not so goods from advocates of both vessels. Right now, my leaning is towards the Catalac simply because I like the layout and they are in the main set up for Europe. I have sailed a Catalac 9M, no surprises and instant rapport. I have motored for an hour in Sarasota on a Gemini and again, no surprises. I liked both but had the impression that the Gemini was like a Chinese copy of a well known something else. (Not that it is or I know what 'something else' is..its just the feeling Im trying to convey) I dont mind copies, but that was my take on it.

OK.. before a fight develops, thanks to everyone for helping me improve my knowledge of the Catamarans in boating..

[Canibul]

you BELIEVE they originally came from Europe?

I guess we're clear on your knowledge of Catalacs.

Tell me how you handle your Gemini in two feet of water with the centerboards and rudders up. This was somewhat of a mystery to me. Is it the outboard that makes this possible? The windage must be an issue.

[weavis]

Thanks valhall360 for your helpful comments.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Canibul

you know of one.
out of a thousand or eleven hundred made, right?

I ran across a number of Gemini 3400's while trying to find our own boat. I never saw one I personally would just buy and take across the Gulf Stream, though.

There were 27 of the Catalac 12Ms made. I talk about this model mainly because I own one of them. I would be talking without experience if I acted like I was an expert on the other models, or the Gemini's past what I found in an extensive, multi-year investigation. I really, really wanted to buy a Gemini 105MC.

There are still 25 of the 27 Catalac 12Ms going after 30 years. Do the percentages.

You seem to concentrate on how slow they sail. Well, I guess so. We averaged about 7.5 knots coming down here, mostly on one engine and the sails, with most of the wind about 45 degrees off the port bow for most of the trip. Directly in our faces for almost half of it. And if I had put another half million dollars into a boat like yours, I think I would expect something for that, too. We're talking 100K$ boats here. But when it's all said and done, a 15 year old kid on a bicycle on a beach road could outrun either of us under sail. I'm glad you like a slightly faster boat, and we are talking the difference between a brisk walk and a slow trot here.

That would mean 80 of 1000 Geminis are in the scrap yard. I'm not sure if that would be correct.
Averaging 7.5 kts motor sailing on a 12 m cat doesn't make it a good sailing boat.
Our old Seawind 1000 was a 100$K boat.
I'm sure when you reach your golden years you'd appreciate a slow trot compared to a handicapped crawl:-)


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[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Canibul

Tell me how you handle your Gemini in two feet of water with the centerboards and rudders up. This was somewhat of a mystery to me. Is it the outboard that makes this possible? The windage must be an issue.

No the stillette will do the same. Pull up the boards and rudders and continue along (actually if it's that shallow we typically slow down).

The rudders and motor still steer, just not as efficently. Yes, the bow will have more of a tendency to blow off in a cross wind.

A number of times, we've gotten slips at full marinas when we talked them into letting us use a shallow slip. You have to take a little extra care and I wouldn't want to do it in a nasty blow but it's a handy thing to have.

Anchoring in packed bays is nice because you can pull everything up and use parts unavailable to those with deeper draft.

The most common advantage is when dealing with narrow channels surrounded by shallows, it's real easy to find yourself outside the channel. We've always been able to just turn back towards the channel and continue on...well we do have to slow down to pull the rudder back down.

I'm not suggesting to be careless but also don't like to be limited.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Nice one. So, each time you anti-foul, you re-do the inside of the trunk as well as the board? Does that limit where you can haul out, or is it if they can haul a cat, it's all okay anyway? Also, is it physically difficult to get the boards out and get access to the inside of the trunk? What kind of anti-foul are you using? (Questions comes from a mono person).

I'll check back later, we're about to slip the boat, back whenever.


Ann

Actually, no. We haven't had growth there, so I don't re antifoul the trunk every time we slip. (Which has only been twice so far anyway)

Did it last time though. The daggerboard lifts out upwards, so there's no restriction on where I can do it. Could do it on a beach if needed. I only need to get about 200mm up the trunk, that's as far as the water goes.

Last time I used Ameron antifoul. Seems to be working well so far, but it's only been 12 months.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by weavis

.......So really, at this point it comes down to personal preference ........

It always does.

[JPA Cate]

44' cruising cat:

Thank you for answering my questions, that was extremely courteous.

Have a good one!

Ann

[JPA Cate]

weavis:

Your description of the one as feeling like a Chinese copy said to me that you were perhaps unaware of what "building to a price" means in your life. Apparently you react to the feeling of different quality your perceive in the Catalac.

I had advocated going in sit in a couple of older ones, and you've already done that!

So I guess the question is which "quality" feeling you actually prefer. Your Pounds Sterling, your choice.

Ann

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

weavis:

Your description of the one as feeling like a Chinese copy said to me that you were perhaps unaware of what "building to a price" means in your life. Apparently you react to the feeling of different quality your perceive in the Catalac.

I had advocated going in sit in a couple of older ones, and you've already done that!

So I guess the question is which "quality" feeling you actually prefer. Your Pounds Sterling, your choice.

Ann

NOw Ann..........
You dont know anything about me to be making that sort of judgement.

For the record, Im pretty sure I know what building to a price means, as I also know exactly what a Chinese copy is like. Both of these vessels were built to a price.... and I was trying to convey the feeling that the Gemini had a feelin......... you know what, it doesnt matter. I wasnt trying to be rude or upset anyone but it seems whenever people make a choice, a side and a stance has to be taken.

I can give you my impressions right now after some more research and yet another trip to the docks in the rain...

For the price Im willing to pay, I would much prefer the Catalac. Lots of reasons, not least that I have a preference for thicker hulls and less flex. I like the layout more because its less "plasticky" and more something I could work with. However, I do not want to rewire a Gemini for 230 volts. I do not want to pay 22% VAT on a non EU registered vessel. So for reasons other than avid dedication to a marque, I will probably go for a Catalac and be happy.
However, and this is the simple fact, If I could get a Gemini 105MC for less money, or equal but substantially better kitted out with neccesities.. I would consider it carefully. (VAT paid of course)
Why? because I see the plusses in both vessels!

• Single occupant.
• Not an overloader.
• Like both saloon and cockpit layouts.
• Not averse to speed or outboards.
• Not averse to trading up in 2-3 years.

The bottom line is that this will not be my last Cat. Right now, I am persuaded for the Catalac. As above, the Gemini is not written or or rubbished......Im sure for me it would do fine. I would NOT get it for 2 people.
However, I do not want to rewire a Gemini for 230 volts. I do not want to pay 22% VAT on a non EU registered vessel. So for reasons other than avid dedication to a marque, I will probably go for a Catalac and be happy.


You all helped to crystalise it in my mind.....

[smj]

Rewiring for 230 volts is a breeze. The 120v volt wiring will already be oversized so all you would have to do is change the receptacles. Not that I'm pushing the Gemini!


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