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Old 21-10-2015, 11:36   #61
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
...
Modern sailboat structures use thin hulls and a liner bonded with Plexus for the main structure. The bulkheads are bonded to the liner. If the liner fails and they do from time to time the bulkheads don't do much.
I've seen some of your examples of higher end boats using bonding but I also noted that they combined glassed in main bulkheads with other structures bonded directly to the hull, not liners.
Modern construction methods for entry level boats are done for only one reason....its faster and cheaper.
There is a good news part of the story...for 99% of the boats made they are perfectly constructed for the intended use and I totally understand the builders not spending a bunch of extra money making them stronger and longer lasting than they need to be. Those "conservative" builders you refer to can fill that little niche for those who want a boat built up to a standard and not down to a price.

Let's cut the crap: Bonded can be superior to tabing and it all depends how it is made and materials used and it is not only a question of price. What is important is the way it is done and the materials used.

It is not only a question of price, not only entry price boats use bonding and even American quality boat builders use bonding agents to bond bulkheads for the hull even if they building methods are generally more conservative. For instance

Alerion: Structured Bulkheads: Marine grade plywood bulkheads bonded to hull and deck
http://www.alerionyachts.com/wp-cont...ist-1.1.14.pdf

C&C, older ones: A structural grid and hull pan are bonded to the hull, and the bulkheads and internal furnishings are bonded with adhesives developed for the aerospace industry.
new ones: Structural bulkheads bonded to hull and deck
Redline 41 - C&C Yachts
1999 C&C 121 Blue Hull Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Jboats: GRP molded main structural bulkhead, bonded fore & aft on hull and deck.
Tech Specs

Tartan: Structural Bulkheads bonded to the hull
Tartan 4300 - Tartan Yachts - Page n 2 - PDF Catalogues | Documentation | Boating Brochures

Regarding European ones, lots of them even if it is bad publicity talking about bonding agents because even if they are superior people tend to associate them with glue LOL

One of them is this to high end brand:



  • The structural bulkheads are made from female moulds using same laminate sandwich system with core thickness of 20 mm. Bonded to hull and deck with Spabond 340 Epoxy Adhesive System (SP Systems).
  • 2 x Forepeak bulkheads are watertight. The space in front of the forward bulkhead below the anchor well is filled with closed-cell PU foam.
  • Longitudinal and transverse stiffeners going are built in solid laminate using Carbon/E-glass/Epoxy resin (prepreg vacuumbagging with curing at 85 degrees C) bonded to the hull and structural bulkheads with Spabond 340 Epoxy Adhesive System (SP Systems).
Bach Yachting - Shipman 50


Do you think they use bonding agents not because they are better but because they are cheaper?

I am not saying that all boats that use bonding agents use them properly I am saying that most accidents with bonding agents happen not because of their failure but because were improperly applied.
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Old 21-10-2015, 12:08   #62
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Let's cut the crap: Bonded can be superior to tabing and it all depends how it is made and materials used and it is not only a question of price. What is important is the way it is done and the materials used.

It is not only a question of price, not only entry price boats use bonding and even American quality boat builders use bonding agents to bond bulkheads for the hull even if they building methods are generally more conservative. For instance

Alerion: Structured Bulkheads: Marine grade plywood bulkheads bonded to hull and deck
http://www.alerionyachts.com/wp-cont...ist-1.1.14.pdf

C&C, older ones: A structural grid and hull pan are bonded to the hull, and the bulkheads and internal furnishings are bonded with adhesives developed for the aerospace industry.
new ones: Structural bulkheads bonded to hull and deck
Redline 41 - C&C Yachts
1999 C&C 121 Blue Hull Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Jboats: GRP molded main structural bulkhead, bonded fore & aft on hull and deck.
Tech Specs

Tartan: Structural Bulkheads bonded to the hull
Tartan 4300 - Tartan Yachts - Page n 2 - PDF Catalogues | Documentation | Boating Brochures

Regarding European ones, lots of them even if it is bad publicity talking about bonding agents because even if they are superior people tend to associate them with glue LOL

One of them is this to high end brand:



  • The structural bulkheads are made from female moulds using same laminate sandwich system with core thickness of 20 mm. Bonded to hull and deck with Spabond 340 Epoxy Adhesive System (SP Systems).
  • 2 x Forepeak bulkheads are watertight. The space in front of the forward bulkhead below the anchor well is filled with closed-cell PU foam.
  • Longitudinal and transverse stiffeners going are built in solid laminate using Carbon/E-glass/Epoxy resin (prepreg vacuumbagging with curing at 85 degrees C) bonded to the hull and structural bulkheads with Spabond 340 Epoxy Adhesive System (SP Systems).
Bach Yachting - Shipman 50


Do you think they use bonding agents not because they are better but because they are cheaper?

I am not saying that all boats that use bonding agents use them properly I am saying that most accidents with bonding agents happen not because of their failure but because were improperly applied.
Show me some pictures of how Benni/Bavaria and the like bond their bulkheads. All I see when I think of this type of construction on entry level boats is that video taken on that 50 ft. Benni when during a gale the rear bulkhead broke loose(ya it was bonded with Plexus) and the whole rear end came apart and the boat sank.There is no question in my mind that properly done using proper materials bonding can work.
I just got back from visiting a friend with a brand new X boat that has major issues because the carbon fiber frame holding the rigging and keel has separated from the hull and has pulled the skin away from the core. They are going to have to tear it apart and rebuild the whole area. I know X yachts usually does a decent job but a lot of these new improved designs do not hold up in offshore conditions like tried and true reinforced hulls and tabbed in bulkheads. If there is a failure in the tabbing its not a tough job to redo the tabbing but if the Plexus bond fails in the liner, good luck because it compromises the whole hull. These new entry level boats do a great job for their owners and I see the value in them but for our use I'm happy to stick with tried and true construction.
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Old 21-10-2015, 12:22   #63
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

It may not be the bonding material but the limited surface area tearing away on a bulkhead?
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Old 21-10-2015, 13:08   #64
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"



Jumping into the fire a moment, this is how you properly bond *structural* bulkheads. That's a hull joining a structural bulkhead in my boat. 90 degree area coved/filleted in with a mix of silica, chopped glass fibers, microballons and epoxy, then covered with biax tape.

For cabinetry, non structural partitions, you could use standard adhesives to bond. I sure wouldn't bet my life on using adhesive bonding or even tabbing on structural bulkheads unless the boat is a canal boat, like the one in this thread.
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Old 21-10-2015, 13:17   #65
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hullvenus View Post


Jumping into the fire a moment, this is how you properly bond *structural* bulkheads. That's a hull joining a structural bulkhead in my boat. 90 degree area coved/filleted in with a mix of silica, chopped glass fibers, microballons and epoxy, then covered with biax tape.

For cabinetry, non structural partitions, you could use standard adhesives to bond. I sure wouldn't bet my life on using adhesive bonding or even tabbing on structural bulkheads unless the boat is a canal boat, like the one in this thread.
For what it is probably not worth. I agree, even about the tabbing being insufficient.
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Old 21-10-2015, 13:17   #66
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Hi there,
When my daughter bought a cyclades 50 from Moorings in October 2011 they were advised to strengthen the upper rudder bearing support shelf where it attaches to the bulkhead before going offshore. Moorings said there had been a problem with the bonding between the support shelf and the bulkhead on some boats the bulkhead was coated before bonding, and sometimes the coating itself failed, not the glue. They carried out strengthening by glassing the shelf to the bulkhead, which cured the problem and there was no sign of movement after 15,000 offshore miles. It sounds like your problem was caused by the failure of that support shelf.
I saw a technical advice bulletin drawing attention to the problem and advising strengthening work to prevent any failures (from beneteau to moorings, I think, but it could have been between moorings BVI and other Moorings centres.). I cant find a copy of that bulletin on the net, but Moorings BVI might have it? Sorry to hear of your trouble hopefully resolved by now.

This was a letter to the owner of the Benni 50 Blue Pearl that sunk enroute to the Azores. The rear bulkhead became detached from the vessel and the rudder/steering wires etc. fell apart and the boat sunk. The owner had asked for input from others that may help him deal with Beneteau. Their 43.3 also had several failures and it was caused by the Plexus bond not adhering to the bulkhead but the bulkhead was varnished and of course the bond was as good as the varnish bond to the bulkhead. I can't argue that Plexus isn't a good bonding agent because it is but when you construct boats trying to glue Plexus to varnish or paint or whatever its only as good as to what it is sticking to.
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Old 21-10-2015, 13:58   #67
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

This vid always gave me the creeps but it clearly shows what happens with crap construction.

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Old 21-10-2015, 14:22   #68
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The origin of Condomarans ?????

Does anybody know the origin of "Condomaran" ? When appeared this term first time in the scene of boating, yachting and sailing world ?

I only found one post of August 2013 "Benefits of Multihulls" where it is clustered within the world of multihulls:

There are three kinds of multihulls.
  • Racing multihulls—the advantage is simple: Speed.
  • Condomarans— the benefit is that they are floating condos. Of course they sacrifice a few other things along the way like sailing for pleasure. This is the type monohullers love to hate with good reason.
  • Performance Catamarans (and Trimarans) The short list of benefits includes speed, level sailing, room, and safety due to unsinkability. Different designs have different combinations of these attributes. See designs by Jeff Schionning and Kurt Hughes for good examples.


So it is linked with "condo", as short form of Condominium.

Wikipedia definition:
Quote:
A condominium, frequently shortened to condo, is the form of housing tenure and other real property where a specified part of a piece of real estate (usually of an apartment house) is individually owned.
Free Dictionary definition:
Quote:
condo - one of the dwelling units in a condominium. condominium. condominium - housing consisting of a complex of dwelling units (as an apartment house) in which each unit is individually owned, with each owner receiving a deed to the unit purchased, including the right to sell or mortgage that unit, and sharing in joint ownership of any common grounds, passageways, etc.
Herewith I'd define a Condomaran as a "Catamaran" or "Trimaran" which is in ownership of different share holders, e.g. every share holder owns a cabin or the right to use the multihull for a specific amount of charter weeks per year. Right ?

Questions:
  1. We dont know this term in Europe ! (Regularly we call them simply cruising catamarans.) - Is it typically an American/US thing ?
  2. Who came up first with this term ?
Steve Dashew posted on 28th April 2011 in SetSail under the headline "A Real Cool (Cruising) Cat" with following two pictures. I suppose he made a snap of a Crowther Cat, others say it is the Cat "Neptunes Car" (a 19 year old Shuttleworth design). In my understanding it is not a purely cruising cat or Condomaran. The boat shown in the pics is a cruising-racing Cat. Right ?

Quote:
The only reason we can see to cruise offshore in a multihull is speed. But if you go for the condo style cats the weight and windage will make you so slow that you will envy the daily runs of monohulls. On the other hand with long hulls, minimal accommodations, and low windage, fast sailing will be your reward.
...
Here is an example. OK, she is a bit on the ugly side, but you are going to make exhilarating passages. And you will not be bothered by the wing deck slamming.
The Answer of Matt Marsh on 30th April 2011 there in the comment field:
Quote:
Interesting to know, Richard. I had a suspicion that Shuttleworth would be involved… his style is rather distinctive. The problem with production cruising cats isn’t that the concept is inherently bad; rather, it’s to do with market forces. If you cram in a lot of accommodation space, and give it powerful engines, you can market a “condomaran” as a charter boat (floating hotel room) in all sorts of profitable places.


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Old 21-10-2015, 14:42   #69
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

From someone who wants to downsize from 3 stories and 2 full size Samsungs, oh and one is just a huge kegerator in the full home theater, the Bali 4.2 looks awesome!

My only real concern is the rotating door. Funny everyone talks about a fridge but no one mentioned the electric door, the seals etc..

The Bali 4.5 may be a more reliable option and splits the difference of the open layout and the closed salon. Not to mention all the usable space on the solid foredeck.

This boat seems to be a great option, to me, when compared to a Helia, our previous fav.

He're a good bit of video from the boat when it was in Annapolis.

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Old 21-10-2015, 14:58   #70
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Skip, you really need to get with the Cruisers forum naming methodology.

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails faster than 10kn you are a "racer".

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails at 8kn then you are a "true sailor".

If you own a cat that in 10kn wind sails at 5kn then you cannot be a sailor and you must be a "cruiser".

If you decide that 5Kn will not get you there in time for tea, and you turn the motors on you are a "charterer".

If you do not own a cat but are an authority on all things cats (there are many of these) then you are an "internet sailor".

If you own a cat without sails then you are one of the great unnamed who have no right to be on the water in the first place.

If you have a production cat, especially a Lagoon, then you are a "victim" because your cat will fall apart on the first encounter with 2m seas.

If your boat requires crew of a BMI index in the lowest quartile and they can sleep on sailbags then you have a "racing boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but have no problems with claustrophobia then you have a "performance boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but do not want to wake your wife when you do so you have a "condomaran".

You may be under the misapprehension that the purpose of owning a cat was simply to participate in the joy of sailing at whatever speed your hard earned funds allowed. However, this would be a mistake. The real purpose is to look at all other cats and wonder where in this labelling system you reside and to be either jealous/dismissive of any others.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:10   #71
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Skip, you really need to get with the Cruisers forum naming methodology.

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails faster than 10kn you are a "racer".

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails at 8kn then you are a "true sailor".

If you own a cat that in 10kn wind sails at 5kn then you cannot be a sailor and you must be a "cruiser".

If you decide that 5Kn will not get you there in time for tea, and you turn the motors on you are a "charterer".

If you do not own a cat but are an authority on all things cats (there are many of these) then you are an "internet sailor".

If you own a cat without sails then you are one of the great unnamed who have no right to be on the water in the first place.

If you have a production cat, especially a Lagoon, then you are a "victim" because your cat will fall apart on the first encounter with 2m seas.

If your boat requires crew of a BMI index in the lowest quartile and they can sleep on sailbags then you have a "racing boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but have no problems with claustrophobia then you have a "performance boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but do not want to wake your wife when you do so you have a "condomaran".

You may be under the misapprehension that the purpose of owning a cat was simply to participate in the joy of sailing at whatever speed your hard earned funds allowed. However, this would be a mistake. The real purpose is to look at all other cats and wonder where in this labelling system you reside and to be either jealous/dismissive of any others.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
At last! Now, finally, I know where I stand, er - sail.
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:12   #72
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

There are plenty of good boats out there that can sail well, are comfortable, and are not poisonously expensive. And they even have their bulkheads bonded and not tabbed, WOW
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:15   #73
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Really enjoyed that vid. Man those boats are getting bigger and bigger, pretty impressive, like a small apartment on the water.
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:16   #74
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Skip, you really need to get with the Cruisers forum naming methodology.

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails faster than 10kn you are a "racer".

If you own a cat that in 10Kn wind sails at 8kn then you are a "true sailor".

If you own a cat that in 10kn wind sails at 5kn then you cannot be a sailor and you must be a "cruiser".

If you decide that 5Kn will not get you there in time for tea, and you turn the motors on you are a "charterer".

If you do not own a cat but are an authority on all things cats (there are many of these) then you are an "internet sailor".

If you own a cat without sails then you are one of the great unnamed who have no right to be on the water in the first place.

If you have a production cat, especially a Lagoon, then you are a "victim" because your cat will fall apart on the first encounter with 2m seas.

If your boat requires crew of a BMI index in the lowest quartile and they can sleep on sailbags then you have a "racing boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but have no problems with claustrophobia then you have a "performance boat".

If you want to sleep in a bed but do not want to wake your wife when you do so you have a "condomaran".

You may be under the misapprehension that the purpose of owning a cat was simply to participate in the joy of sailing at whatever speed your hard earned funds allowed. However, this would be a mistake. The real purpose is to look at all other cats and wonder where in this labelling system you reside and to be either jealous/dismissive of any others.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
Brilliant!
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:18   #75
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Brilliant maybe- Defensive definately
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