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Old 13-03-2008, 17:02   #16
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Originally Posted by catty View Post

Gee I wonder if the customers new they weren't buying a complete set of plans.

I have had dealings with Rob Denney mostly over the net involving a reasonably large amount of money, and I must say, Rob is a rarity in the marine industry today. He has never tried to cut corners or make a fast buck for himself, even if the opportunity was there. He tell you the facts as he sees them, not a fancy marketing story, that is constantly "enhanced" as we see with some vendors. Not only is he completely honest and truthfull in all matters, he willingly shares his vast knowledge with everyone.
He puts his money and time where his mouth is, devloping new and innovative concepts, and its not making him rich, due to the very reasonable prices he charges for plans.

Rob is one of the few true gentlemen in the industry,so Catty, you can be sure that whoever has had a business deal with Rob has received more than what they paid for. Why don't you ask the people who have bought plans if they are happy, and if they have any commplaints about the level of service they have received and free support?

Catty, what did you want to achieve by posting the comment you did? Why attempt to smear a mans reputation based on a single comment by an obviously disgruntled ex-employee?
Take a reality check and get yourself a life.

Alan
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Old 13-03-2008, 18:23   #17
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I have had dealings with Rob Denney mostly over the net involving a reasonably large amount of money, and I must say, Rob is a rarity in the marine industry today. He has never tried to cut corners or make a fast buck for himself, even if the opportunity was there. He tell you the facts as he sees them, not a fancy marketing story, that is constantly "enhanced" as we see with some vendors. Not only is he completely honest and truthfull in all matters, he willingly shares his vast knowledge with everyone.
He puts his money and time where his mouth is, devloping new and innovative concepts, and its not making him rich, due to the very reasonable prices he charges for plans.

Rob is one of the few true gentlemen in the industry,so Catty, you can be sure that whoever has had a business deal with Rob has received more than what they paid for. Why don't you ask the people who have bought plans if they are happy, and if they have any commplaints about the level of service they have received and free support?

Catty, what did you want to achieve by posting the comment you did? Why attempt to smear a mans reputation based on a single comment by an obviously disgruntled ex-employee?
Take a reality check and get yourself a life.

Alan
Totally agree

Mike
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Old 13-03-2008, 20:34   #18
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Rob,

I enjoyed checking out your website; found it very informative. Please forgive me for my novice questions, as this is the first time I've really looked at the proa. I was intrigued that of the 4 proa types listed, only the atlantic puts the rig to windward - doesn't the windward hull contribute turbulence and reduce power, or is this desired to depower when the hull flies? I'm not at all surprised that the atlantic proas have higher initial stability (as they are equivalent to a trimaran, layout-wise), but see the point of impacting living area where the rig is located. I wondered why then, there wasn't a proa design with the rig hull windward and the accomodation hull leeward (a backwards Harry?)? One final question - I'm thinking about my former cruising grounds on Canada's West coast, where there are a lot of channels; not very narrow, but enough to require plenty of tacking to windward. I'm trying to imagine how one would shunt in such a situation, but can't help thinking it would be extremely painful. Am I wrong, or is this one of those situations where a proa would not be the boat of choice? Thanks.

Kevin
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Old 13-03-2008, 21:22   #19
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Rob,

I enjoyed checking out your website; found it very informative. Please forgive me for my novice questions, as this is the first time I've really looked at the proa. I was intrigued that of the 4 proa types listed, only the atlantic puts the rig to windward - doesn't the windward hull contribute turbulence and reduce power, or is this desired to depower when the hull flies? I'm not at all surprised that the atlantic proas have higher initial stability (as they are equivalent to a trimaran, layout-wise), but see the point of impacting living area where the rig is located. I wondered why then, there wasn't a proa design with the rig hull windward and the accomodation hull leeward (a backwards Harry?)? One final question - I'm thinking about my former cruising grounds on Canada's West coast, where there are a lot of channels; not very narrow, but enough to require plenty of tacking to windward. I'm trying to imagine how one would shunt in such a situation, but can't help thinking it would be extremely painful. Am I wrong, or is this one of those situations where a proa would not be the boat of choice? Thanks.

Kevin
G'day,

Glad you enjoyed the web page. It is well out of date on progress, but the basics are all there.

The interference from the hull is small beer compared to the other reasons for keeping the rig to leeward and accommodation to windward.
In no particular order:
The ww hull cockpit rarely gets wet, making it a much nicer place to sail from and to get in and out of under way.
Sitting to leeward looking at the rig is much less comfortable than vice versa. Imagine you were sitting to leeward in thsecond half of the video at , particularly in a bit more breeze and sea.
Their are some hull/rig balance problems with the rig to ww, the boat wants to sit the wrong way when lying ahull.
The entire rig on a 15m/50' harry weighs about 250 kgs/550 lbs. This weight would be better off in the ww hull only if the weight of crew, and all the accommodation weighed more than this.
There is a little less load on the beams if the rig is in the leeward hull.
The long hull to leeward can still be used for accomodation (2 double cabins with ensuites on the 18 and 20m (60 and 66')) with the mast in it, but the much shorter ww hull would suffer a lot of lost space from the mast and beefing up it requires.

Shunting a well sorted proa is dead easy. There is a short, light (no!) air video at http://www.harryproa.com/ShuntingVideo/Shuntingbb.wmv Takes about 7 seconds solo with the schooner rig. A bit quicker with a single mast or someone to help, a bit slower in a breeze. The boat in the video is sailing slowly as the battens were too tight and would not flick over, so only one sail was correct on each shunt.

The great thing about shunting in narrow spaces is that it can be reversed at any time. You don't get caught in irons. You also don't have to move from side to side, and only pull on one lightly loaded sheet . Compared to most cruising cats, it is quicker, safer and easier. And the worse the conditions, the more this applies. Shunting is a fair bit slower than gybing, plus you lose a bit downwind as you come up to a reach. However, the safety aspects, especially in a blow, make this a small price to pay for the average cruiser.

Any other questions, please ask.

Alan and Mike. Thank you very much. It is not everyday I get character references as nice as those.

Regards,

Rob
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Old 14-03-2008, 03:49   #20
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Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
G'day,

Like I said Catty, if you didn't exist, I would think about inventing you. This thread was dead, we now have new members signing up for the chat group. Ta.

The post you quote was written by my ex draftsman. Of course clients knew they were not getting the full set of plans immediately. Harryproas are a work in progress. I never stop improving them, so there are regular updates. Now that I am in charge of the plans, everyone gets a full set up front plus updates when they are available.
To say there was never a full set drawn is a bit mischievous. There are 7 harryproas sailing, with another one due to splash when the ice melts in Finland. They all needed plans.

The 20 plans sold is also out of date. I have sold 4 sets since the draftsman quit drawing plans last year. One 18m/60 footer (probably the first of four) one 20m/66 footer and two 15m/ 50 footers with another 50 footer likely tomorrow.

There have been some deleted posts on the chat group. Not sure what is going on there, biut should be back to normal shortly. Welcome aboard to all those who have either joined or browsed.

Thanks for the good wishes Jeff.

regards,

Rob
Hallo Rob

I wish there where more boat builders like you , striving to continually improving the design , it is the only way to get better,
I understand with high volume builders this is to costly but in all fairness, improving can be done on every boat .

Good luck with your develpements

Gideon
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Old 14-03-2008, 08:01   #21
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nice to be of assistance

Rob......"There have been some deleted posts on the chat group. Not sure what is going on there, biut should be back to normal shortly."


Let me remind you, they were the ones where you publically bagged Mark Stephens and Michelle.

Anyway I suspect anyone can design a boat. But a good safe boat requires skill and attention to detail. I suspect the area of design that is still evolving is the rig and steering. How one can possibly ethically push an untested evolving design on the general public I will never know. Rob its time you hopped on one of your symetrically challenged catamarans and tested it in the enviroment it was intended to sail in. Geez even fastcat has the guts to sail across the atlantic in one of his.
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Old 14-03-2008, 08:11   #22
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RHow one can possibly ethically push an untested evolving design on the general public I will never know.
Cept maybe for a few thousand years of various variations on the theme by island poeple.

Quote:
Rob its time you hopped on one of your symetrically challenged catamarans and tested it in the enviroment it was intended to sail in. Geez even fastcat has the guts to sail across the atlantic in one of his.
I think your allusion to Robs level of intestinal fortitude is uncalled for and rude - indeed objectionable. Many of us here were keen to know what you sailed when you based your opinions on your experience on the 4 multihulls you have owned. You refuse to tell us, we accept that and modify the level of credibility we supply to your opinions. We don't call you weak for not fessing up.

So treat others as you are treated - By all means argue the toss with Rob, but please don't imply he is gutless.
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Old 14-03-2008, 08:16   #23
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It is my feeling that anybody that is willing to design and build an unproven and new design cannot be called gutless, Believe me it takes guts, long hours and lots of money to do this and sailing a FastCat accros the Atlantic twice in 3 months is the easy part and the only way to find out if the design works and where it can be improved.
Greetings and a good weekend
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Old 14-03-2008, 09:58   #24
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Old 14-03-2008, 10:05   #25
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Rob......snip

Anyway I suspect anyone can design a boat. But a good safe boat requires skill and attention to detail. I suspect the area of design that is still evolving is the rig and steering. How one can possibly ethically push an untested evolving design on the general public I will never know. Rob its time you hopped on one of your symetrically challenged catamarans and tested it in the enviroment it was intended to sail in. Geez even fastcat has the guts to sail across the atlantic in one of his.
G'day,

You suspect completely wrongly. The rigs work brilliantly. Far better than anyone except me expected, and far better (safer, easier, lighter, cheaper) than the rigs on conventional multis. Same applies to the boats.

The rudders are still evolving along with the rigs and the rest of the boat. I totally agree with Gideon about the need for constant improvement. Everyone who has bought plans does too and thinks it is a good thing. There are numerous choices they can make on rudders starting from conventional ones with all their many drawbacks and problems. All our clients prefer to have variable depth rudders which kick up on impact and do not require any holes in the hull, daggerboards or mini keels. Consequently they are prepared to wait while I improve them, using my boast, money and time to do so. The latest but almost certainly not the last iteration has been tested, to destruction many times, on my trailer proa and is currently being engineered at my cost and built for one of the 15m/50'ters. As usual, I will report on if it works or not and you can rip into me if it doesn't.

There is a lot more to crossing oceans than the basic boat. I have 50,000 plus offshore miles on multis and monos, racing and cruising all over the world, including half a dozen Sydney Hobarts. Until very recently I have had neither time nor money to fit out a harryproa to the standard required for an ocean crossing. Everybody concerned (including you, this is not the first time I have made this point) knows this. Now that I do have the money (if not the time) I have completed the hull and decks of an offshore racing version which I will be sailing offshore when the rig is finished.

I ask you again, what is there about the harryproa concept that makes it unsuitable for offshore work? Have you read the magazine article yet? Be really good if you could misquote it and twist it round so I can highlight the benefits, now that I am supported by some impartial testing.

I suspect your descent to name calling and repeating points which I have already replied to is caused by frustration at your inability to make an impact. Don't stop trying, every post of yours brings in new enquiries, and the testimonials from Allan, Mike and Gideon are beyond price.

Gideon, is there a thread on the Green Motion motors? I want to compare them (weight, power, cost, efficiency, price, reliability etc) to the Re e power motors and the Dutch ones (can't remember the name), which we are fitting on Blind Date, the Dutch 15m/50' proa. The plan is to slide them up and down the rudders so they are out of the water when not in use and deeply immersed when they are. Should make for some interesting maneuverability options!

Factor, I believe you are a journo? I hope to be in Brisbane soon to set up a new carbon mast factory and demo an Outleader kite on a power cat. If you (or anyone else) are interested in coming along for a look at the kite, please let me know. May also be able to show you the hulls and decks of the race boat if you are interested.

regards,

Rob
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Old 14-03-2008, 10:23   #26
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Hallo Rob
the tread is in the vendors forum and is called
Green Motion retractable propulsion and generation
The weight of the motor , prop and anode is 36,4 kilo and this unit gives 9,6 Kw at 1200 rpm the torque is 64 Nm at this rpm setting.
We have 2 other sizes under development , 15 Kw and 25 Kw and that will be the complete range .The complete cost for this system is 17600 euro and that includes
everything from prop to batteries see the list attached
An other info you want to have , just mail me at
gideon@africancats.com

Greetings and have a good weekend

p.s. keep up the good work

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-10261.html
Attached Files
File Type: pdf green motion letter.pdf (47.6 KB, 48 views)
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Old 14-03-2008, 16:11   #27
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Re Catty:

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Many of us here were keen to know what you sailed when you based your opinions on your experience on the 4 multihulls you have owned. You refuse to tell us, we accept that and modify the level of credibility we supply to your opinions.
Absolutely true. I have modified the level of credibiltiy I give him to zero. I don't believe anyone would have built a boat, and continually refer to having built it, yet refuse absolutely to divulge what kind of boat it was.

So basically I regard him as someone who has never sailed on a multihull, but chooses to be critical of all aspects of them anyway. Sadly, there are plenty like him.
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Old 16-03-2008, 08:32   #28
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Why attempt to smear a mans reputation based on a single comment by an obviously disgruntled ex-employee?
Take a reality check and get yourself a life.

Alan[/quote]
My understanding is that Mark is an exhausted ex-partner rather than a disgruntled employer. He is very proud of the work that he has done and has no qualms about the concept, but any new concept puts a fair bit of stress on people in development and building up market confidence. Sometimes they just have to call it quits and go where the money is a bit easier for the sake of their families. I do not think he was disparaging the the boats with the remark but merely remarking on the position at the time that people were asking for changes to the design for personal reasons and he was doing his best to keep up with it all, as well as building such boats as 'Rare Bird'. He did keep up with it and the boats are being built, some already in the water, but the strain eventually told. He very much wants the boats to continue and is confident in the value of freestanding rigs.
Rob and Mark are both honourable people I am proud to call friends. Much of the cost of the plans went into the number crunching for the engineering. They are meticulous in the engineering design, avoiding excess weight and problems caused by stress concentrations, and reinforcing where needed. This sort of care and development doesn't come easy.
Robert
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Old 16-03-2008, 10:18   #29
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Why attempt to smear a mans reputation based on a single comment by an obviously disgruntled ex-employee?
Take a reality check and get yourself a life.

Alan
My understanding is that Mark is an exhausted ex-partner rather than a disgruntled employer. He is very proud of the work that he has done and has no qualms about the concept, but any new concept puts a fair bit of stress on people in development and building up market confidence. Sometimes they just have to call it quits and go where the money is a bit easier for the sake of their families. I do not think he was disparaging the the boats with the remark but merely remarking on the position at the time that people were asking for changes to the design for personal reasons and he was doing his best to keep up with it all, as well as building such boats as 'Rare Bird'. He did keep up with it and the boats are being built, some already in the water, but the strain eventually told. He very much wants the boats to continue and is confident in the value of freestanding rigs.
Rob and Mark are both honourable people I am proud to call friends. Much of the cost of the plans went into the number crunching for the engineering. They are meticulous in the engineering design, avoiding excess weight and problems caused by stress concentrations, and reinforcing where needed. This sort of care and development doesn't come easy.
Robert[/quote]


My apologies to both Mark and Rob, I had no knowledge of the actual situation that was mentioned, it just sounded like a negative comment, that someone was using unfairly against Rob, and totally off the thread.

I have full confidence in their ability to build freestanding rigs, and expect to have them start on mine within the next few months. ( bi-rigs for a 49 ft cat).

Alan
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Old 16-03-2008, 10:48   #30
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Why is it when somebody sticks his head out to accomplish something that is not done before, that others try to chop it of as fast as possible.
Give these people a break and the benefit of the doubt, otherwise we would still be sailing in the wooden boats designed 500 years ago with an average speed of 2 knots
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