S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

He's not criticizing anything or anybody. The people in the video are Catamaran owners, so the information regarding seasickness is their opinion as actual Cat owners and former owners of a monohull.

Who better to ask? Than a couple with extensive cruising experience on both kinds of boats.

In fact an extensive information about any particular subject gives a bigger and better inside view regarding that subject that any particular experience or opinion.

In what regards seasickness that is particularly evident since I never have been seasick in my life, not on an airplane doing aerobatics neither on the boat on a storm. I rely completely in what regards information about that on exterior information but I don't believe I am less informed about that than if I got seasick.

Jeff, that I think used to post here too, refered medical studies that confirmed that people that get seasick have different sensitivity to different types of movement and I have confirmed that, having heard or read about many different personal experiences regarding seasickness and the types of movement different persons are more sensible to.

In what regards boats there are sailors more prone to get seasick with big slower amplitude movements and others more prone to get seasick with more fast smaller amplitude movements.

I don't see why this cause so much controversy. The skipper of that cat stated that he would consider a trimaran as his next boat because he considered the type of movements are more similar to the ones of a monohull and that because is less prone to get seasick with that type of motion. I bet he does not get seasick easily and is talking about really bad weather (otherwise he would not be happy with a cat).

I have said my wife is more prone to get seasick with fast lower amplitude movements and I have a lot of experience seeing her getting seasick and how to avoid it.

She does not get seasick with the boat going up and down 6m waves with a long period, but if pointed upwind really close to the wind with 2m short period waves, going fast she gets seasick rapidly, do to the jerkier movement of the boat. Probably on an heavier monohull going slower she would be all right and even on my boat if I take 1 or 1.5K of boat speed upwind she would be fine.

I have heard several direct statements of people that is more prone to get seasick one or the other way, Neal seems to confirm that he does not particularly like that type of jerking movement, I suppose with short period waves.

I really don't see why so much noise about this.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really don't see why so much noise about this.

Yet you seem to be making the most "noise".

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I got a little chuckle out of that. I'm not nit picking, just wanted to point out that the correct phrase is "too much time on my hands."

Thanks for the chuckle!

You made me smile as well. Thanks for picking that up. Of course I meant nothing by it. :big grin:

Regards,
Chaya

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

In fact an extensive information about any particular subject gives a bigger and better inside view regarding that subject that any particular experience or opinion.

In what regards seasickness that is particularly evident since I never have been seasick in my life, not on an airplane doing aerobatics neither on the boat on a storm. I rely completely in what regards information about that on exterior information but I don't believe I am less informed about that than if I got seasick.

Jeff, that I think used to post here too, refered medical studies that confirmed that people that get seasick have different sensitivity to different types of movement and I have confirmed that, having heard or read about many different personal experiences regarding seasickness and the types of movement different persons are more sensible to.

In what regards boats there are sailors more prone to get seasick with big slower amplitude movements and others more prone to get seasick with more fast smaller amplitude movements.

I don't see why this cause so much controversy. The skipper of that cat stated that he would consider a trimaran as his next boat because he considered the type of movements are more similar to the ones of a monohull and that because is less prone to get seasick with that type of motion. I bet he does not get seasick easily and is talking about really bad weather (otherwise he would not be happy with a cat).

I have said my wife is more prone to get seasick with fast lower amplitude movements and I have a lot of experience seeing her getting seasick and how to avoid it.

She does not get seasick with the boat going up and down 6m waves with a long period, but if pointed upwind really close to the wind with 2m short period waves, going fast she gets seasick rapidly, do to the jerkier movement of the boat. Probably on an heavier monohull going slower she would be all right and even on my boat if I take 1 or 1.5K of boat speed upwind she would be fine.

I have heard several direct statements of people that is more prone to get seasick one or the other way, Neal seems to confirm that he does not particularly like that type of jerking movement, I suppose with short period waves.

I really don't see why so much noise about this.

I'm with you, Polux -- never been seasick in my life, neither on a cat (have you ever been on one? ), nor on a mono. Nor in the front seat of a Russian Air Force L39 jet trainer doing aerobatics at 5g, much to the surprise of the pilot. Experienced grey-out, but not a twinge of sickness.

But my Father, who is saltier than I am, did actually get sick, crewing on a catamaran, on a race from Miami to Havana in the early '90s. Violently sick. And he said it was because of the different motion. So -- I don't discount this theory, even though I haven't experienced it myself.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm with you, Polux -- never been seasick in my life, neither on a cat (have you ever been on one? ), nor on a mono. Nor in the front seat of a Russian Air Force L39 jet trainer doing aerobatics at 5g, much to the surprise of the pilot. Experienced grey-out, but not a twinge of sickness.

But my Father, who is saltier than I am, did actually get sick, crewing on a catamaran, on a race from Miami to Havana in the early '90s. Violently sick. And he said it was because of the different motion. So -- I don't discount this theory, even though I haven't experienced it myself.

Yes, I have sailed on cats , beach cats occasionally and once with friends aboard a Moorings charter condo cat, but the experienced is so reduced and the type of boat and weather conditions so particular, that It really does not count as experience.

Munch more significant as personal experience (and only in what regards performance) are the times I have sailed side by side with a cat or a trimaran, but even those regards only to the type of my boat and the type of multihull involved (even if they have been several) on that particular set of particular sea and wind conditions.

More significant than the personal experience on cats but way less than the information one can take from the ARC or races results where production cruising cats are sailing with production cruising monohulls, but that regards only sail performance.

Regarding motion, seaworthiness and general sensations I do rely on the experience of others that had sailed cats and monohulls extensively and I have through the years read many testimonies about that. These Barramundi and Catana owners experiences are just a smaller part. I try to avoid some obviously biased information on both sides of the equation like the one we can find here between "fundamentalists" of the two types.

The information one can collect by the knowledge and experiences of many sailors that have a vast experience with cats and monohulls and have not a clearly biased attitude regarding disliking or liking each type allows for a much superior quality information regarding any personal one, since those different opinions are sometimes contradictory regarding preferences, regarding motion, regarding seaworthiness even regarding speed.

A personal experience is just that, even if very vast it will be just one among many others that can and are many times divergent.

A big personal experience with multihulls would only increase my knowledge regarding my personal feeling and likeness about them, it would contribute to a bigger bias, a personal one, and a less objective opinion based mostly on my personal opinion. I really try to avoid that, even in what regards monohulls.

Contrary to many, when someone asks about a suitability of a boat for a given program I would not give counsel based on the type of boat I would prefer to do that, but on that type of boat that according with the profile of the cruiser I would think that adapts better to that profile.

I don't judge boats (good or bad) by my personal preference but regarding how well they are designed to fit a program and a given type of needs. I guess that being professionally a design provider and working in close relationship with clients helps to have that relativistic view. I am used to provide completely different designs to different clients, designs that have only in common leaving them satisfied.

I know that a client is really fully satisfied when he thinks that his design would be the one I would chose for me, If I could. It happens frequently and I still find that funny. I guess that should happen too with Naval Architects.

[four winds]

Good post Polux. As architects (formerly) we understand the Vitruvian values of comodity, firmness, and delight can't be satisfied by a universal design.

[mal_l]

I didn't mind those S/V Delos discusses on mono vs. cat although the owner did waffle on a bit too long, but i have stopped watching S/V Delos videos in general as i hate to be censored, what i mean is the nudity being blurred out, either show it all! or not at all! cut those bits out for your private collection or show it in its entirety.

[robert sailor]

Watched all 3 of the videos and thought they were just fine and felt they represented a balanced opinion of real life sailing on cruising cats presented by experienced offshore sailors. There certainly are some cats that are faster and point higher but the same can be said for monohulls.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by mal_l

I didn't mind those S/V Delos discusses on mono vs. cat although the owner did waffle on a bit too long, but i have stopped watching S/V Delos videos in general as i hate to be censored, what i mean is the nudity being blurred out, either show it all! or not at all! cut those bits out for your private collection or show it in its entirety.

WHY are you on cruising forum then

This is such a rediculous comment. And frankly, who cares if you have stopped watching them. They make over $5000 a video now. You watching it for free is not going to make any difference.

[mal_l]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

WHY are you on cruising forum then

posting, info, sharing etc, this is cruising forum yes? not youtube?
your comment makes no sense to me?

This is such a ridiculous comment. And frankly, who cares if you have stopped watching them.
I dont care if you or anyone cares it was just a comment, take chill pill. if you read carefully you'd see i was only against censorship, if the girls (or guys) want to get naked then so be it, but its all a tease to get you to watch.

They make over $5000 a video now. good on em! im happy for them
You watching it for free is not going to make any difference.
im bored now i gotta go walk the dog

.....

[Polux]

Some more information regarding a monohull performance versus a cat one, in this case not a performance cat versus a cruising monohull (like on this thread) but regarding a performance monohull versus a cruising cat, generically called condo cats.

This year I had the pleasure to sail with alongside many sailboats, at least for a while and to catch many. One of the more curious experiences was with a cat on what were probably the best conditions for that type of boat (mine would sail comparatively better in weaker winds). I am talking about 16/18k wind and the two boats coming on converging courses, but with very similar wind angles, mine about 70º TW and the Lagoon 400 at 80/90ºTW.

As the boats were approaching soon was evident that both skippers were racing the boats, with full sail trying to come ahead on the converging point, both boats were making (on the GPS) over 9k, mine, a Comet 41s just a bit faster, winning some distance, coming ahead by just some meters.

The cat skipper took the same course (we were both going around a cape) putting the boat on my stern, just some meters away, a quite frightening sight since the Lagoon is huge. Slowly but surely I went away and soon the lagoon was at a more comfortable distance.

Then we turn the cape and went upwind and as I learned later to the same port. I had perfect conditions to go against a nasty sea, a typical med one with short 2/3 meters waves, I had lots of power and was hand steering the boat picking my way between the waves, doing over 7k and maintaining a course near to my destination (I had just to make a final short tack).

The Lagoon, that on a beam reach was able to make almost my speed was now very far away, tacking and tacking against the wind. I was able to tell the time I won because the Lagoon passed near me while I was already at anchor reading a book, on the way to the port: In 9nm I had gained about an hour.

Yes I know it is not fair because the Lagoon is not a performance boat and mine is but the point is just to compare performances.

The performance of the Lagoon with the wind on the beam was surprisingly good and I an sure it would go faster (with those conditions) than any main market cruiser of the same size and that explains the good performance on the trade winds and crossing oceans.

Upwind was what I expected and similar to other condo cats I had sailed with.

And a bit out of the context, regarding that story about the size of the boat (LWL) to be the major influence in what regards boat speed, I was also considerably faster than a new CNB60 that I catch when they had to tack (I could go considerably closer to the wind). The CNB was beautiful on the water and they had all sail out. Not this boat, but a similar one (to busy to take a photo).

[Factor]

Yep, I beat a trike up the mountains the other day on my Sports Bike, and that is about as relevant as this to anything.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

Some more information regarding a monohull performance versus a cat one, in this case not a performance cat versus a cruising monohull (like on this thread) but regarding a performance monohull versus a cruising cat, generically called condo cats.

This year I had the pleasure to sail with alongside many sailboats, at least for a while and to catch many. One of the more curious experiences was with a cat on what were probably the best conditions for that type of boat (mine would sail comparatively better in weaker winds). I am talking about 16/18k wind and the two boats coming on converging courses, but with very similar wind angles, mine about 70º TW and the Lagoon 400 at 80/90ºTW.

As the boats were approaching soon was evident that both skippers were racing the boats, with full sail trying to come ahead on the converging point, both boats were making (on the GPS) over 9k, mine, a Comet 41s just a bit faster, winning some distance, coming ahead by just some meters.

The cat skipper took the same course (we were both going around a cape) putting the boat on my stern, just some meters away, a quite frightening sight since the Lagoon is huge. Slowly but surely I went away and soon the lagoon was at a more comfortable distance.

Then we turn the cape and went upwind and as I learned later to the same port. I had perfect conditions to go against a nasty sea, a typical med one with short 2/3 meters waves, I had lots of power and was hand steering the boat picking my way between the waves, doing over 7k and maintaining a course near to my destination (I had just to make a final short tack).

The Lagoon, that on a beam reach was able to make almost my speed was now very far away, tacking and tacking against the wind. I was able to tell the time I won because the Lagoon passed near me while I was already at anchor reading a book, on the way to the port: In 9nm I had gained about an hour.

Yes I know it is not fair because the Lagoon is not a performance boat and mine is but the point is just to compare performances.

The performance of the Lagoon with the wind on the beam was surprisingly good and I an sure it would go faster (with those conditions) than any main market cruiser of the same size and that explains the good performance on the trade winds and crossing oceans.

Upwind was what I expected and similar to other condo cats I had sailed with.

And a bit out of the context, regarding that story about the size of the boat (LWL) to be the major influence in what regards boat speed, I was also considerably faster than a new CNB60 that I catch when they had to tack (I could go considerably closer to the wind). The CNB was beautiful on the water and they had all sail out. Not this boat, but a similar one (to busy to take a photo).

your experience seem in line with mine. Depending on sea state, how rolly it is, upwind, monos can do up to 50% more VMG. On conditions you describe would be your 6 kn VMG vs 4 kn VMG. This difference decreases with improved sea state and can achieve some surprising results.

In saying that, I doubt cat was hand steered unlike your boat. Hand steering can add around 1 kn speed to cat upwind at the same angle. But generally, people on cruising cats dont bother or even do not know how to.

[44'cruisingcat]

I can sail rings round Lagoons in our boat too. So what?

[tp12]

There's a rather large CNB that did a few races in our series over winter and got hammered. They're quite slow.