Risk of capsizing a Lagoon 380 and reefing

[schilke]

Hi cruisers,
We've just purchased our Lagoon 380 S2 catamaran and gaining our first experiences with her. I've got ample experience om a monohull but literally no whatsoever on a multi hull. One thing that keeps me up at night is the risk of capsizing (I have my family aboard). On a monohull I have a good feeling on where is too much (pressure on rudder, luv yawing, heeling, etc.). I'm missing those signals on my cat (or I don't feel them yet). How do you assess when to reef? Is capsizing a thing on a L380 one need to be concerned with or is it just theory (I'm not talking of surfing down large waves and flipping over but capsizing from wind and normal seas)? Thanks for your wisdom!

[MikeFergie]

My first cat was a Leopard 40. I owned her for 7 years before selling to upgrade to a bigger faster cat.

Sail cats by the numbers is my advice to you. This means read the manual carefully as this tells you wind speed and sail allowed. Use this as a basis for at least the first 2 years. During this time you will start getting used to what the pressure feels like by the numbers ie is the leeward sugar scoop getting pushed down really hard ? Then it’s time to reef.
What I can tell you is that cats in general go faster with less effort if you don’t push the numbers. What I mean by this is the first reefing on the main on the Leopard 40 was 15 knots. At 15 knots when you reefed you would pick up at least half a knot and the boat would not feel as stressed.

The Lagoon38 is a great sail boat one of the best built by Lagoon.

[Kettlewell]

Hi cruisers,
We've just purchased our Lagoon 380 S2 catamaran and gaining our first experiences with her. I've got ample experience om a monohull but literally no whatsoever on a multi hull. One thing that keeps me up at night is the risk of capsizing (I have my family aboard). On a monohull I have a good feeling on where is too much (pressure on rudder, luv yawing, heeling, etc.). I'm missing those signals on my cat (or I don't feel them yet). How do you assess when to reef? Is capsizing a thing on a L380 one need to be concerned with or is it just theory (I'm not talking of surfing down large waves and flipping over but capsizing from wind and normal seas)? Thanks for your wisdom!

It's a lot harder than you think to capsize a big cat like that just from being overpowered by wind. The forces involved would be huge, and something might break before it would happen. I have not owned a Lagoon 38, but on a smaller French 32-foot cat we owned we were more conservative reefing than we would be on a similar-sized mono. Typically, we might take a reef in the main at dusk if there was any indication there might be squalls at night. It is an advantage if the mainsheet and jib sheets are easily accessible to the helm position, where presumably someone will be on watch most of the time.

[neilpride]

I bring one from France to Martinique in winter, it was my first experience in a multihull, if I tell you the truth, lifting a hull is very difficult, I consider it heavy and slow, in my crossing I found myself with 35 to 40 knots in biscay arriving to La Coruña, deep reefed , and another surprise of 40 knots off Oporto in Portugal, I never thought about capsize, I'm not saying it's not impossible, but with a L38 it is a very remote possibility. ...

[catsketcher]

Firstly, the Lagoon 38 won't flip from normal seas if you pull the sails down. When doing wave tank testing back in the 80s it got really hard to capsize cats from 38ft and upwards in the test tank.

You are right to be interested in how to listen to the boat. Like others have said, you need other inputs. Speed, lee shroud and sheet tension are my go to inputs.

Cats are different from monos in that the weather helm that pushes a mono up to reduce load on the rig is often not there. So I start bringing the boat up into the wind more as the breeze increases, just feathering it myself. The genoa winch load is one area that gives a great measure of the loads the boat is taking.

As stated by others, when you get to this point you will probably go almost as fast reefed. I am a big fan of staysails but the diamond rig usually doesn't have these. The problem is that as you reef you will get more lee helm and that means in waves you bear away when going over waves. My staysail rig keeps the CE in position.

Get a few sails in a small off the beach cat. Work out the danger zones in cats (about 90 degrees true). This helps you work out when to bear away to reduce loads ( from about 110 to 180 true) and when to head up (from 45 to 90 true) (As for the missing 20 degrees it depends on the boat and conditions).

When cruising with my family they let me know loudly when I was going too fast and the boat was too bouncy. Listen to them.

[Tupaia]

Everything said so far...plus.... be very aware when sailing downwind. Cats sail fast and comfortably downwind reducing the apparent wind to levels that can lull you into a false sense of security. When sailing downwind set a wind strength alarm and reef early.

[Cheyne]

Biggest thing we have learned is to sail to the numbers. I have no mono experience, but friends have sailed with us and said they didn’t like not have a “feel” for what is going on, but we think everything is just normal. At the helm I have all the reef points for reaching and close hulled. We normally are more conservative in our reefing than the manual.

[schilke]

Cheers guys, that's reassuring! How much does your cat lean when you push it? I read somewhere that a 10% angle is already considered dangerously close to capsize. 10 is not much and worries me.

[Cheyne]

Never really had the boat lean. The only thing my wife hates is short period waves on the beam. This isn’t a performance cat. Not really slow, but not going to fly a hull.

[chrisr]

echo the others

reef early and often. the boat and the crew will thank you for it

sail by numbers...not by feel. watch your windspeed / wind angle. set conservative figures (all other things being equal we go to first reef at 15k tws / 90 awa) but be aware that you can hold a little more pressure on deeper angles...but be careful about going too fast downhill. shouldn't be a problem in a 380 but be wary of getting caught running deep in a building breeze. by the time you decide to turn up to reef it might be very hairy ! burying the bow and pitchpoling is probably difficult in a 380, but you don't want to try !

be aware that on a cat you are often somewhat insulated from the conditions. things outside the cockpit can often be a lot worse than you think...so go outside and sniff the weather often

be very conscious of the swell angle and period. if you are getting close to being overpowered a big steep swell on the beam can make all the difference

you should never have any noticeable angle of heel (although of course the boat will change angle on the swell)

all that having been said, i'd say you would have try really really hard to flip a 380

cheers,

[boatman61]

If your getting close to flipping an L380 you should not own one..

[Tin Tin]

I would say 90% + of cruising catamaran capsizes (unless in hurricane force winds) are caused by pitch pole on a reach or downwind, an over-canvassed cat accelerates down a wave buries the bows and the rear end overtakes the front end. This is hard to do in Lagoon style boats as the sail area is already modest and sterns are heavy and bows are buoyant, set for the charter market. Reefing early is the key, as the wind increases the boat sails better on a beat with a reef or two, speed is hardly affected and the boat becomes less jerky with the lessening of the pressure at top of the mast, manual steering gets easier too. A square top mainsail makes a difference too as it releases pressure better as it flicks off in the gusts. The Genoa with a foam luff will hold a better shape when reefed. Often down wind if you know wind is on the way put 3 reefs in the main (or no main at all) start with full genoa and reef it in as wind picks up. Bear off in the gusts. Watch your true wind when going down wind, it could be blowing 25 knots the boat is doing 10 so the wind does not feel that strong in the cockpit because of back pressure - make sure your speed wheel is working or your wind instrument is able to use SOG to calculate TWS. Follow the Lagoon 380 user manual guide on reefing. My 2c worth.

[SailingHarmonie]

As far as I know ALL of the boats Lagoon sells come with a detailed manual which lists when to reef "by the numbers".

If you do not have the manual, get one. If you have it, then read it, and do as they say. Once you have enough experience, then maybe you can bend the "rules" a bit, but as a start, just follow the guidelines.

Unlike a monohull, you can't go by "feel". Or at least not until you have an aweful lot of multihull miles under your keel.

Reference: A cruising multihull instructor for many years....

[Kettlewell]

Sounds simple, but we found it can be helpful to start out the day with a reef in the main when in doubt. It is always easier to raise more sail underway than it is to take down the reef when bouncing around with too much wind. Plus, it is usually pretty easy to take the reef down when at anchor or on a mooring. When down in the Caribbean one winter the Christmas Winds were howling and we just left the main reefed for weeks at a time.

[Snore]

When I trained experienced sailors on cats, I began by explaining that sailing a catamaran is like driving a 1970's Lincoln Continental, smooth, luxurious, it ain't a performance car.

In the right hands 36-38' catamarans are safe, if operated inside their performance envelopes.

The first factor is reefing. For the love of all that is blessed, holy and sacred- don't reef when 'you feel it', instead reef when the manual says to do so- or earlier. As I recall the Lagoon manual calls for first reef is at 15kts AWS when AWA is >90, I think it is 17kts AWS if AWA is <90. I reef at first or second gust not when the base wind is at the reefing speed.

The second factor is sea state, in the 21st Century a competent sailor should never, ever, not ever be caught in 20-25' seas. A satellite connection and even the low-budget Luck Grib.com software will give you solid weather 2-3 days out. If there is a deep low, one can route away from it. Better to add a few days to a passage than to 'go for it'. If the seas are running 12-14, assuming wind and waves are running together, the boat should ride fairly well as deep as 150AWA. When I sail deep, I demand that the AP be used. Yes, for 30-45 min a person can steer better than the AP. But over the long term the AP will be error free, react faster and more accurately than the human.

Bottom line? Nice boat, when sailed inside her envelope, she should be a fun sail that is super comfortable.