Risk of capsizing a Lagoon 380 and reefing

[team karst]

My L380 manual indicates sail area reduction starting at 26 kts AW. I have seen less than a foot of sugar scoop delta with beam wind at that velocity.

[django37]

Just read the handbook

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Side question. A couple months back a Marina was asking to see my manual regarding hauling out. I had a good laugh.

So how do you sail by the numbers when you don’t have the numbers?

I can ask my sister ship who has figured it all out on his own. Seems to be getting by pretty well. But the closest official numbers might be a gunboat 48. I don’t seem to see those published anywhere. they only made 6 of those boats anyway so they probably don’t have an official manual.

Sailing will start this coming season, so it’s good to think ahead

Make your own numbers based on some basic parameters and apply plenty of care and attention to all of your (early) sailing.

If your static rig tension is correct, then you should be reefing (upwind) when the leeward shroud goes soft. This will likely correspond to about 5* of heel and perhaps 10cm/4” of leeward hull depression. Log the AWS when this happens and use that same AWS on every point of sail (though if you're travelling fast downwind and surfing, be more conservative with the AWS when broad reaching or DDW).

Note that any waves and the dynamic loads go up big time! So you will likely want to be conservative in reefing.

With a performance cat like yours not reefing won’t slow you down, while reefing won’t slow down your average speed much if at all but it will limit your surging and surfing top speeds. That will make life quieter and more comfortable.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Side question. A couple months back a Marina was asking to see my manual regarding hauling out. I had a good laugh.

So how do you sail by the numbers when you don’t have the numbers?

I can ask my sister ship who has figured it all out on his own. Seems to be getting by pretty well. But the closest official numbers might be a gunboat 48. I don’t seem to see those published anywhere. they only made 6 of those boats anyway so they probably don’t have an official manual.

Sailing will start this coming season, so it’s good to think ahead

Have you tried consulting with any naval architects that specialize in multi's? They should be able to get you some numbers.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Everything said so far...plus.... be very aware when sailing downwind. Cats sail fast and comfortably downwind reducing the apparent wind to levels that can lull you into a false sense of security. When sailing downwind set a wind strength alarm and reef early.

Reefing downwind???
How? You cannot put the main far enough to sail downwind and genua alone on the middle cleat with a block from 30kn on...yes then with 40kn you reef it
Before you have a 8m roundsail as downwind sail that works till 35kn and sort out itself and massivle reduce pressure on the autopilot.
The only way you can capsize a 38 Lagoon is flying no reef in 40kn on a broad reach but nobody with a bit common sense does that.

[aqfishing]

We have this diagram in our manual for our Leopard 40. We also have the same sticker in the Saloon. You should have something similar. As been said before, stick to the numbers and you will be fine, you can bet the manufacturers allowed for a decent margin of safety.

Not sure if my one would help you. Cleverer more experienced sailors might be able to comment.

[lestersails]

Very helpful thread. I sail more on monos than cats, but when I bareboat, it is often the latter because my crew loves the space. Could I derive from this discussion that if the AWA is <90 to reef to the AWS whereas if AWA is 90-180 to reef to the TWS?
I also appreciate the advice to reef to the gusts, not the average.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Reefing downwind???
How? You cannot put the main far enough to sail downwind and genua alone on the middle cleat with a block from 30kn on...yes then with 40kn you reef it
Before you have a 8m roundsail as downwind sail that works till 35kn and sort out itself and massivle reduce pressure on the autopilot.
The only way you can capsize a 38 Lagoon is flying no reef in 40kn on a broad reach but nobody with a bit common sense does that.

If you have decent ball bearing cars for your main, you can reef down wind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxWNaDpG2k

I'm not sure what the rest of your post said?

Originally Posted by lestersails

Could I derive from this discussion that if the AWA is <90 to reef to the AWS whereas if AWA is 90-180 to reef to the TWS?
I also appreciate the advice to reef to the gusts, not the average.

Yep. You're on the money there.

[Bill Gibbs]

Should you be surprised by big wind before you have reefed, depower by dropping the traveler, and easing sheets.

When the wind is up and gusty, be able to dump the sheets quickly. No winch handles in winches, someone standing by. Especially a spinnaker, and main.

Take some time to learn to sail a beach cat, windy conditions, and capsize it a few times. Learn what it feels like. How to deal with big winds. You’ll see everyone is right and your Lagoon will probably never approach those conditions. Probably.

In reviewing multi capsizes 2 things are common. The crew was surprised. The sheets were not adequately released in time.

[Leighpilot]

I had the same concern when I bought my first multihull after 40 years of sailing monohulls

The advice you’ve been give is good. You’re not going to capsize ,short of a hurricane. Monohulls relief pressure on the rig by heeling over and spilling the wind. Multihulls relieve pressure on the rig by dismasting. Without warning.

So read the manual regarding reefing or do as I do. I reef when I hit a hull speed I’m happy with. Once I’m at 10 knots I reef. Or by wind speed.

[NSfooter]

Not sure what you mean by 10%, but perhaps you mean 10 degrees. All vessels have an angle where their "stability" disappears. This is found on a GZ curve. While it is true that the angle is less for a cat than a mono, a cruising cat is likely about 70 degrees, so there is no need to worry about angle of heel. As others have pointed out, the heel angle is not something us cat sailors think about. I absolutely sail by the numbers in the manual, or at least I did until my wind transducer stopped working on my way from Grenada to Antigua a few weeks ago. Since then I relied on boat speed as an indicator of whether or not I was overloaded. Heel angle is something relevant to monos, but not cats. You would break something/everything before being tipped over.

Don't worry - your fears are just because you are new to cats.

[JustMurph]

Probably another bit of wisdom won the hard way, if I'm ever needing to roller reef my genoa, I will tend to reef it more rather than less. The reason being is that when roller reefed, the load through the furler, foil, furling line and blocks is huge. Many of us will have the furling line running out to the stanchions, down the side of the boat then back to the cockpit. If the blocks deflecting that line at the bow or stern blow up under that load, your genoa will fully unfurl. Not fun. Been there and done that.

I will be having a larger hank on staysail made, which will match up well against 2nd and 3rd reefs in the main. This way I never have to roller reef the genoa again.

[earthbm]

I made and use this table for my 46’ trimaran (made when measuring and making my synthetic standing rigging). Can make one for your cat.



As for reefing when winds pick up while you are running downwind, it can be hairy, but probably won’t be fatal. My playbook:
1. Turn to 175° TWA and douse/furl your foresail.
2. Head up to maybe 140° TWA. Dump the main sheet as much as you can without breaking the battens against the shrouds. Doing it with the sheet rather than traveller twists off the top more, thus reducing the capsize moment more effectively.
3. Turn into the wind — not too fast in order to reduce the centrifugal force — but fast enough to not let the main get powered up again as your BSP decline causes AWA to rise. Time the start at or just before the crest of the wave.

Can also (in theory) do it downwind by centering the traveller, and sheeting the main, then dropping the main halyard one foot at a time and then winching the reef clew (all the sail power is through that clew, so need to time with the sail swinging forward in waves). In practice it is risky because that centered main can get caught and turn you into the wind. Keep the headsail powered to make it less likely.

[RSH]

I’ve had a Lagoon 380 s2 for five years and we started out from zero when we bought her.
Lagoon has reefing guides that are very specific to the 380-they’re in the owners manual. Follow them and be conservative with your reefing and you’ll be fine-the 380 is a sturdy, forgiving catamaran

[LagoonJim]

I've never had my 500 in anything near these conditions, but a great read for anyone interested in what it takes to flip a 380/38:

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news...e-proves-fatal

No mention of a drogue, or trying to drag spare lines/sheets as a last effort.