Onwership Poll II

[Limpet]

This is a follow up to my ownership poll. I was very surprised by the results.
This poll is mainly targeted at those who's short term goal was to own a boat, although all are invited to vote

I'm not part of a fractional ownership company. I'm just a sailor looking for a way to afford a Cat beyond my means.

I'm trying to establish if part ownership is really a viable alternative to full ownership, in terms of finding other interested parties. Partial ownership could work many ways, here are a few options:
1. N number of people split the cost evenly up front.
2. N number of people split the cost and make payments on a loan.
3. A combination of #1 and #2 such that a up front payment would lessen monthly payments
4. Allow participants to choose between #1, #2, #3

The second half of this focuses on your expectations in terms of the amount of consecutive time that you MUST be afforded to cruise

I know, I'm trying to squeeze to much into one poll


Oh, I left off a key element of the partial ownship concept. Unlike programs like SailTime, the boat would not be local. Rather, it would be in some warm location, such as the Bahamas, BVI, USVI, Hawaii, etc, and would move to some new location every year or so. In this way, you would not become bored with the location, yet would be there long enough for each owner to sail the region

[rebel heart]

Most cruisers I know are families, or at least it's a family oriented thing. I would really only consider splitting a boat with someone if it was a Catalina 25' or something of that sort. Basically I'd be cool with a harbor boat with a fin keel on a partnership.

I've probably put over 200 hours of maintenance into my boat every year; there's no way I'd do that and have someone else banging her topsides.

And the only reason I don't sail her on the weekends is because I'm working on her that weekend; splitting the boat isn't an option.

[GordMay]

Limpet:

There’s a big difference between holidaying aboard, as opposed to “cruising”.

William F. Buckley, in his book “Atlantic High” (or perhaps in “Airborn”) described his personal economic analysis (in favour of) of charter vs ownership for “cruising holidays”. His criteria were similar to yours.

FWIW: Whilst I abhor his political philosophy, Buckley writes excellent fiction.

[sv_makai]

To me while living on land, sailing on the chesapeake bay for the weekends is my escape to a more relaxing world. Normally we are at the boat every weekend, even if the weather doesn't permit sailing.

Multiple ownership comes with reduced time onboard for sailing(yes lower costs), minimal flexiblity, everyone will want to sail on the holidays, weekend time lost to maintance rather than sailing reducing the number of days a year on the water.

Also if the bug hits, you just can't packup the boat and sail off to the south seas.

[Limpet]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Limpet:
There’s a big difference between holidaying aboard, as opposed to “cruising”.

I do think it is important to allow "owners" to cruise for extended periods of time, perhaps borrowing against future time. I suspect that even with many owners the boat will sit unused quite a bit. Owners can work with other owners to carve out time to do some extended cruising.

[GordMay]

At least 3 of the 4 listed time-periods would be holidays, IMHO.
The 4th is open-ended (“or more”) so could be either a holiday or a cruise.
I’d call a duration, measured in months, a cruise.
All holidays:
As part owner, I would need to cruise no more than a week at a time.
As part owner, I would need the option to cruise up to two consecutive weeks at a time
As part owner, I would need the option to cruise up to three consecutive weeks.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Limpet

I'm not part of a fractional ownership company. I'm just a sailor looking for a way to afford a Cat beyond my means.

Build one!

[Gator81]

Limpet,
These are interesting questions you pose. For me, so much of the answers are simply "I don't know yet". When I retire, planned for 7 years from now, we intend to relocate back to the family farm in northern Florida. I'd like to buy a nice cruising cat, 40 feet or so, 3 or 4 cabins. We would plan to basically summer on the boat to get away from the oppressive heat, dinking around in the Caribbean somewhere. So that is something along the lines of a 13-week cruise. For the rest of the year, we would basically be back on the farm, my wife running her bakery business, me being the retired "gentleman farmer", and taking care of my elderly parents. We view this boat plan as sort of like having a Caribbean beach house that we can move when we want to, plus the chance to explore the entire Caribbean. You can cover a lot of water in 13 weeks.

But the bind it puts us in is at the heart of your poll: Do we really want a $300K+ depreciating asset sitting unused (while paying for her upkeep) for the other 9 months of the year, just on the chance that we might feel like flying down to the BVI or Belize or whatever for a week? Or would we rather split the ownership with others like us? Or partner with a charter outfit to put her to work for those other 9 months? Right now, I'm leaning toward the idea of partnering with a charter company, if I can find one flexible enough to work around our plans. I figure they're less likely to become unpleasant partners who suddenly want out of the deal. I also believe that there would be tax advantages to the charter deal, although I haven't worked out the details yet.

Logic and finance aside, I've realized I have a genuinie emotional problem with the shared-ownership idea, whether private or charter: I get attached to things like cars and boats and houses. I prefer to buy or build good things that last, do the kind of maintenance that makes them last as long as possible, and then just keep them forever. I'm a DIY guy. And I'm not really good about sharing. My "new" vehicle is a 15-year-old GMC truck that has a lot of miles and years left in it. My "old" vehicle is a 26-year-old Corvette that is mechanically better than new, and still a head-turner. My sailboat is 29 years old, and ready to go right now. My head is just not wired right for sharing things with other people who are almost certainly not as careful or caring about these things. I wonder, what if I decide to install some higher-end options on the big cat? Will I be able to sleep, wondering if the charter customers will be careful with my toys? These things would be so much simpler if the money pile were bigger...

thanks for the chance to share my thoughts.

[Limpet]

Originally Posted by Gator81

Limpet,
But the bind it puts us in is at the heart of your poll: Do we really want a $300K+ depreciating asset sitting unused (while paying for her upkeep) for the other 9 months of the year, just on the chance that we might feel like flying down to the BVI or Belize or whatever for a week? Or would we rather split the ownership with others like us? Or partner with a charter outfit to put her to work for those other 9 months? Right now, I'm leaning toward the idea of partnering with a charter company, if I can find one flexible enough to work around our plans. I figure they're less likely to become unpleasant partners who suddenly want out of the deal. I also believe that there would be tax advantages to the charter deal, although I haven't worked out the details yet.

I started by considering the charter approach. But the charter option has some key problems:
1. Charter boats are much abused.
2. They charter to anyone with $$$....hence you don't know these people or their abilities.
3. When in doubt, its the owner who pays instead of the charter company or charterer.
4. Your boat may be captured to a particular charter base.
With the partial ownership approach these issue are hopefully dramatically reduced, as now you can check potential owners for ability and responsibility.

Originally Posted by Gator81

Logic and finance aside, I've realized I have a genuinie emotional problem with the shared-ownership idea, whether private or charter: I get attached to things like cars and boats and houses. I prefer to buy or build good things that last, do the kind of maintenance that makes them last as long as possible, and then just keep them forever. I'm a DIY guy. And I'm not really good about sharing. My "new" vehicle is a 15-year-old GMC truck that has a lot of miles and years left in it. My "old" vehicle is a 26-year-old Corvette that is mechanically better than new,

I'm with you here, I have a vette that is 43 years old.
I too would prefer to be the single owner and I would DIY its up keep. But the reality is that a big cruising boat and its up keep is damn expensive. I saw an estimate the other day that put the boat cost @ 48% and all other costs at 52% of the total cost of ownership Granted, I think this estimate assumes all the work will be other than DIY....but you get the idea. With multiple owners, you can spread the cost and make the dream a reality, without potentially having to settle for an older, smaller, less equipped boat[/quote]

[David_Old_Jersey]

Limpet,

I am not entirely sure of exactly what you are looking for...........

If it helps, these guys are brokers for Yacht Fractions - obviously I am not recomending them, apart from to say I do recall having seen their ads in the UK yachting press over many years.

From what I have read, fractional / shared ownership directly between owners is a well trodden path commercially and legally, the concept in the UK dates from ye olden days from joint ownership of commercial sailing ships (so the agreements of who does what and when and who pays are well used and known to the courts - indeed on the shipping Register vessels are divided into 64/64ths for this very reason)..........I would differentiate this sort of ownership between principals from buying a floating time share via a Charter Operation where your relationship is not with the other owners.

I would guess that re-sale may be a bit slow? but I personnally would want an agreement to clearly state the exit strategy for all and ideally that it would be sold after xxx years (not that I have to spend 5 years trying to sell 1/5 of something I do not want, whilst paying the annual fees!)

Yacht Fractions Ltd - Yacht Shares Sailing Yachts Overseas

[sundown]

Good on you if you can handle fractional ownership. In my experience most successful partnerships seem to have one thing in common: the partners each bring something unique to the party; if the only reason you are doing it is financial then where is the basis of respect for each other? Boats, especially ones which you are willing to risk your safety on are intensly personal. Many skippers believe in their hearts that there is only 'one right way to do things' on 'their' boat - how do you handle that with fractional ownership?
For my money I am more willing to downsize the boat of my desire: I would rather be cramped than fighting.

[GordMay]

SailTime is the global leader in fractional sailing with over thirty bases in the USA, Canada and Europe.
Sail locally at a fraction of the cost with SailTime fractional sailing

”... One SailTime period is either 10 am - 6 pm or 6 pm to 10 am. Members can book 2 SailTimes back to back to get a full 24 hour day or save up 2 months worth of SailTimes and book a week's vacation every 2 months ...”

As I previously suggested, “traditional” fractional ownership seems to be designed primarily for day-sailors, or short holidays - not cruising.
Perhaps the market is ready for a “custom” fractional ownership system, designed for shorter cruises. Perhaps not.

[seafox]

Find a boat builder, a diesel mech an electronics wizz and a billionarie and go into partnership with them. You set up the syndicate (that's your contribution) and they do their thing from there.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by seafox

Find a boat builder, a diesel mech an electronics wizz and a billionarie and go into partnership with them. You set up the syndicate (that's your contribution) and they do their thing from there.

I would go for a Nymphomaniac Blonde, a Nun* and a Billionaire.......rolled into one I would marry her.


* this may just be me


The problem I forsee with a Syndicate for longer term cruising, is that folk would want to use the boat for extended periods and their are only so many months in a year - and even in places where the sun shines all year their will still be good and bad seasons in the year.

And also before and after 3-6 months living aboard moving on and clearing off all your stuff would probably take a week........

I would suspect that their are 2 distinct markets that may be of interest:-

1) those who only want to cruise up to 6 months a year (and would like not to have to think about / look after a boat possibly the other side of the world), but year in and year out (at least for a few years).

2) those who only want to cruise for a year or 2 as a career gap, and not as a longterm lifestyle and would like certainty of cost to plan and budget around to enter and more importantly exit this dream, as well as getting a suitable boat.

The problem with dealing with folk on a budget is........they are on a budget!

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

The problem with dealing with folk on a budget is........they are on a budget!

Of course some have a bigger budget than other's.


I'm with "44'cruisingcat", if you want that big cat that you can't afford to buy, you have to build.

Sad but true.

Dave