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Old 22-04-2008, 18:12   #76
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Here is a drawing of the section at the stairs. One of the emergency hatches in each hull is under the stairs. The stair in front of the hatch is designed to be lockable in port, and can be pushed out in the very unlikely case of an inversion.

This shows the 195 to 200 cm headroom also in the stairway.

Ah, good. How tall is your manikin or, more importantly, you? As I indicated before, this was one of several features I really did not care for on the Lagoon 410. Every time I went down the stairs it was a half turn while descending because they cut it too close. And it wasn't just me.

On the other hand, what are the options? Increase freeboard or decrease the walkway on deck by chamfering the angle. Neither are really desirable.
You could cut a step in to the hull (which is what was done on the 410) but I absolutely would not do that.

If you can, try this as it's pretty easy. Turn your manikins around so they are going down the steps. If you think they're still good, I will too. Afterall, it's your boat.
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Old 23-04-2008, 01:13   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maren View Post
Ah, good. How tall is your manikin or, more importantly, you? As I indicated before, this was one of several features I really did not care for on the Lagoon 410. Every time I went down the stairs it was a half turn while descending because they cut it too close. And it wasn't just me.

On the other hand, what are the options? Increase freeboard or decrease the walkway on deck by chamfering the angle. Neither are really desirable.
You could cut a step in to the hull (which is what was done on the 410) but I absolutely would not do that.

If you can, try this as it's pretty easy. Turn your manikins around so they are going down the steps. If you think they're still good, I will too. Afterall, it's your boat.
Hallo Nordic ( Alan )
If you can increase the headroom to 205 you will do yourself and your customers a favor , our original headroom was 1.98 and since hull 004 we have raised the deck with 50 mm to a headroom inside of minimal 2.03 and in the stair and hull section 2.06 and it has made a big difference.
We do seem to attract tall customers so that might have to do with it.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 23-04-2008, 02:39   #78
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Thanks for the feedback guys, - much appreciated.

I just checked, the figure in the drawings 188 cms. so we have a bit over 2 meters vertical freeheight at the lowest point.

Everywhere else in the saloon, and in the aft cabins etc we have a minimum of 205 cms headroom. At the aft end of the saloon it's nearly 220 cms.
I am 185 cms and on my present boat the height above the steps is only 170, but this isn't a problem, leaning a few degrees inboard solves this.

If I raise the deck, then I have to raise the bridgedeck as well, or else you will be sitting too deep, and some smaller people will lose the 360 degree view from the cockpits and saloon.

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Old 26-04-2008, 17:00   #79
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Visibility

"some smaller people will lose the 360 degree view from the cockpits and saloon." An 18" high (46cm) seat back should be as close as possible to the window bottoms for good visibility for all.
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Old 27-04-2008, 01:19   #80
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I'm 196cm, and I spent many years on fishing boats with about 185cm or less headroom. At sea your legs are set wider and therefore you do not need as much head room. I found it very useful to brace myself against the roof when doing the cooking. I now have no hair on top but I can't really blame the time at sea. AS long as the bunks are long enough and wide enough I don't really care about head room. My next boat I will build with 185cm head room. That extra 20cm is a lot of windage
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:39   #81
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Now for the tough one.

What Iím indirectly addressing is what I call the fetishism of symmetry in sailing Ö and yet almost no one steers on centerline. Why fight it?

My idea is this: Offset the fore door to the cockpit by about 700 mm, give or take. Move the two winches to within about 300 mm of each other so that one person can easily access both. Steering station is moved to just off the center line but closer to the door. Because you are sitting you can now see under the sails and now have a full 180 degrees of unobstructed view, the remaining portion will be visible through the windows as before. Directly behind is now a combined nav/steering station (possibly with a joystick) and desk which has the same field of view as the fore steering station.
In 2006, Cummins MerCruiser demoed a 42' motorboat at the Miami Boat Show which used a joystick controled sytem that interfaced with a highly accurate GPS system, intertial navgation, a heck of micoprocessor and a couple of rotatable motors ... with a joystick interface.

This is Part I and Part II of a four part review. From Part II you can read III and IV. Quite interesting.
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Old 06-05-2008, 13:42   #82
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Joysticks, Zeus system

Hi, Maren - the Zeus system is for powerboats. It's too big for sailboats. Steve Dashew has a joystick controlling his autopilot as the only inside steering mechanism on his powerboat, 'Windhorse.' He has had no problems ever with his WH autopilots, and so is completely comfortable with that. IMHO, the more expensive high tech gear you have, the more there is to go wrong and to become obsolete.
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Old 06-05-2008, 13:56   #83
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I have considered a joystick working through the autopilot, but prefer a "proper" system, final decision on steering is still open, as I am looking at ways to not use hydraulics if possible, but it isn't easy for 3 positions.

As i will be using a bus based engine control system, it would be possible to do something along the lines of the Zeus system, but I prefer to use standard kit as much as possible.


Any ideas for a light, responsive 3 position helm steering system anyone?


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Old 06-05-2008, 14:09   #84
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Hi, Maren - the Zeus system is for powerboats. It's too big for sailboats.
I understand that, however, I don't think it is necessarily true this will always be the case.

As for the issue of how a more complex system has more points of failure, I have no argument. And yet, boats are undeniably more complex than they have ever been. In the last five or so years, we have seen the introduction of consumer level diesel-electric systems, finalization of NMEA200, AIS systems drop to where its feasible for consumers, sonar systems interfaced to charting programs (allowing you to remap the ocean floor), etc.

In all likelihood this trend will not only continue but continue to accelerate for the foreseeable future.


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Old 06-05-2008, 14:22   #85
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Any ideas for a light, responsive 3 position helm steering system anyone?
I don't see how you aren't going to be stuck with a hydraulic system which is powerful but, light and responsive? ... not so much.

But things might change between now and then.
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Old 06-05-2008, 14:35   #86
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The only problems I have had with hydraulics has been the seals in the cylinder at the rudder. Carry spares! For lightness, use sailing valves, which permit feedback. I would think that minimizing the tube length in use when any given helm is working would give the least friction, so I would design the valve locations with that in mind. With 3 helm positions, I would probably make at least one a joystick control, if I had a really large and reliable autopilot.
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Old 06-05-2008, 15:01   #87
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I don't see how you aren't going to be stuck with a hydraulic system which is powerful but, light and responsive? ... not so much.

But things might change between now and then.
Light and resposive can be done too. Size the rams to the helm pumps properly and you can pretty much dial in the response you want, down to around 1 turn HO to HO. Balanced rudders will reduce steering effort.

The main downside with hydraulics is the lack of feedback or "feel"
Pumps are available without the anti feedback valves, but wouldnt suit multiple helm stations. I've never used this type so I can't comment on how much actual feel you get.

It takes a bit of searching around, but you can get good info from here: Hydrive - Homepage

I'm actually in the throes of sourcing steering too. And I'd also like 3 helm stations.
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Old 07-05-2008, 15:03   #88
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When I drive a car with hydraulic brakes, itís definitely powerful and quick but I wouldnít call it responsive. I reserve that term for feedback and Iíve never heard of a hydraulic system with feedback -- until now. That was a really interesting link. It seems to combine the power of hydraulics with the responsiveness of mechanical systems.

However, Iím not totally sold on the idea as, while it seems to give an added layer of complexity and convenience (and sadly, power use) it adds no functionality. Then again, I havenít tied it and I really do prefer the feel of mechanical systems.

I wonder how reliable it is and how many amps it pulls?

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Old 07-05-2008, 15:28   #89
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Hydraulic steering

The hydraulic steering systems used on small to medium sized yachts don't use power. The wheel turns a manual pump that pumps the fluid, and the fluid pushes against rams attached to tillers. These pumps often have one way valves that prevent feedback, but most manufacturers will give you the option to have a valve that lets you have feedback or not, at the flip of a switch. It isn't a lot of feedback, but it's definitely there. Kobelt in Canada and Hynautic in Australia are two suppliers of these systems. Powered hydraulic systems are found on super-yachts and medium to large sized commercial vessels. There are systems used on small boats, manufactured, for example, by Teleflex.
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Old 07-05-2008, 15:57   #90
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The main attraction of hydraulics IMHO is the ease of instalation. Particularly in multihulls, and with multiple helmstations. Maren, you can produce rudder shaft torques in excess of 200kgm without using a powered system. More than ample for the size of boat most of us are sailing.
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