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Old 14-08-2008, 12:24   #61
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have you looked at the outremer 42 ? my estimate is its the best in class its on my shopping list- after bread ,tomatoes etc ,etc !
Yes but only on internet. Itīs on my "i donīt know if they are big enough inside" list. And if i can load it with all things i donīt need but will have in the boat. If it is big enough itīs my favorite, and itīs with a steeringwheel.
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Old 14-08-2008, 12:57   #62
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I don't see a flat spot to walk forward on the Lighwave? Maybe it's just the pics?
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Old 14-08-2008, 13:14   #63
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I don't see a flat spot to walk forward on the Lighwave? Maybe it's just the pics?
Do you mean beside the windows(Pic 1)? I like the boat VERY much but i would like to see much more pics on her! Do you have Niels?
Where is the enginecontrol located?
Do you have 40hp? is that enough? In the test they had 75hp...sounds little to much.
Can you open any windows over the kitchen(pic 3)?






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Old 14-08-2008, 22:09   #64
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OK, to give a critical look at some of the boats. The slip stream has a bridedeck that goes way out over the hulls, it's esthetically very nice, much the same as the prout 45, however it causes you to either have to go up as a walk around above the life lines or go to the very edge of the boat, either would be in my opinion not a place I'd like to be on a boat pitching wildly in a storm. A friend of mine has a prout 45 with the same cabin top and its a very storm worthy boat, extremely safe, beautiful, but again I HATE going around it's cabin top as I'm stepping up and right into the path of the boom and I'm also walking at a higher level which means the motion of the waves and boat are going to be more exaggerated and I can easily fall overboard. With catamarans which don't extend that cabin top the nice flat wide and low decks really are far safer when walking out toward the edge of the boat and away from the boom. The above boat also has huge windows everywhere, including the hulls, again, very esthetically pleasing, but in hot or cold weather lexan windows will be either frozen over or hot as a stove element, glass windows will be worse. When living aboard the first thing you do is try to find a way to cover the windows, which sort of defeats the purpose (there are nice textalene covers you can get, but they are expensive, and you would need a lot of them and they do block the view, in fact you can see that this boat even is using them underway in the middle picture). Boats like the outremer and atlantic are thoroughbred racers in design, but they do that at the expense of accomodations down below, which is a big trade off as you will be spending 99% of your time at anchor.

Having now owned a couple of different catamarans during the last decade and lived aboard full time for a decade and sailed not half as much as a should be, I can tell you that I do like the idea of retractible drive legs, sail drives with faulty gaskets or straight shafts that have come loose can send your boat faster to the bottom than practically any other type of emergency, and it's fairly common. I'd look at the number and type of water tight compartments, how well the boat would float if punctured, where the diesels are located (or if you can afford it retractible electric drives). There are many things which make a boat more esthetically appealing, such as huge ports everywhere for light, but it really should to be moderated by trying to find an accomodation for blocking out the sun. Many boats which do have the wrap around large windows have a small lip or overhang above the windows for helping to block out the sun such as the PDQ 44i. Cored decks and hulls are wonderful insulators. Boats like the PDQ 44i are very nice, absolutely no doubt about it and are very comfortable, an all around great boat, but not a speed demon if that's your goal. They also have their engines amidships (yanmars and not the westerbekes thank god) which has pluses and minuses (I have them as well though my boat is not anywhere as plush as a PDQ). Were I looking at boats as you are, I would look at

Slower but extremely safe and strong boats
Broad Blue (perhaps the most beautiful joinery of any boat, bar none, the rolls royce of catamarans)
Privilege (newer models, the older ones had windows which you really couldn't see anything out of as they looked up rather than out and simply created massive heat gain, all fixed with the newer models such as the 435)
PDQ 44i (now starting to be built in Argentina (Good luck PDQ!!)

Or faster boats with still some accomodations

St Francis 44 as a less expensive boat
FastCat as a expensive plush boat which would be far faster than my SF and is the only boat that has retractible electric drive legs
Catana 431 if you want daggerboards

Or if you don't mind the smaller accomodations and storage down below
Atlantic 42

I don't think with the money your intending on spending you really need to entertain the idea of a flashy boat which in the end may really not be that practical either because it has no real accomodations at anchor and no one wants to spend much time on it or because it has certain things like large windows in places where there's a lot of stress and really would create leaks and presents problems with heat gain or loss.

Last, regarding speed of boats, some of it really depends on skill. Catamarans are light weight, they don't have the inertia to be able to keep going when you disregard sail trim. I went on a catamaran in the Virgin Islands and it was a great sailor. The couple who owned told me their personal speed record was 7 knots. That day I hit 8 knots on the test sail in about 13 knots of wind. They were a wonderful couple, but they really couldn't sail well. And I'm certainly no expert, far from it. I'm pretty sure that a good sailor on a barge with a couple of bed sheets could beat me on my boat any day of the week. Any in heavy wind and seas, you certainly don't want to destroy your boat by trying to sail it quickly into vertical waves. Speed is best determined by how well a boat sails in 10 knots of wind, not 30.

To me priorities would be in order safety (no water tight bulkheads I would immediately exclude it), comfort (if the births and cabins are tiny, no thanks), sailing ability and then engine type (retractible drive legs are pretty much a gold standard for a hundred reasons I could list out seperately). There are things like "reputation" which is important to a degree, but lets face it a lot of that is simply hearsay and you should find out for yourself. There are also a lot of "reputable" companies which have failed and gone out of business and a lot of shoddy companies which are making catamarans as fast as they can.

Best of luck!!
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Old 14-08-2008, 22:37   #65
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About the Lightwave 45
Firstly let me say that I do not like the mine is bigger/ better/faster/nicer contests that I unfortunately sometimes read through on these forums.
I am not a racing sailor but a cruiser and as soon as the boat does 6 knots under sail I am startring to relax at 8to 10 I am happy and over that I start to feel uncomfortable - in cruising mode.
The predominent winds here in the Whitsundays are in the 10-20 knots range and I am mostly happy. To summ it up she sails very well for me but I could not give you a polar.
She has wide flat decks on the ouside and it feels safe to walk on there to the front and that is where the jacklines run. The helm station was the big buying point for me as I love the protection, the comfort and the best visibility that I have seen on any boat yet.Ithas never been in issue for me in terms of access to the boom/sails. The window discussion has been done in other threads and I am not going there.
I like the sail drives and have opted for 55 Volvos. Would probaly have gone yanmar but engine mounting plates where already installed when I changed my mind and have no great preference of one over the other.
Hope this helps
Nils
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Old 15-08-2008, 02:20   #66
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"St Francis 44 as a less expensive boat
FastCat as a expensive plush boat which would be far faster than my SF and is the only boat that has retractible electric drive legs"

I do not know about the SF 44 but I am not sure that the FastCat is much faster, Gideon claims a speed advantage of 15 per cent over the SF 50. What the FastCat is not is plush compared to the SF. The SF is much ' plusher' with a much better finish and fit out. I do like the idea of the retractable engines and would see those along with many aspects of the FastCat as innovative and exciting but as yet untested on customer boats.

When we suggested a washing machine on a FastCat Gideon suggested a small table top thing that you pour the hot water into an turn - weighing about 3 kg. The SF has a washer/tumble dryer. So weight saving is very much the key thing on a FastCat. !00 hours labour being claimed on a carbon table top just to save a few kilo of weight. In fact a pursuit of weight saving second to none but I do not think that directly translates into a speedy comfortable boat.
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Old 15-08-2008, 08:34   #67
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Gludy,

SF completely retooled their factory since the creation of the SF 44, especially mine in 1999. The SF 44 has water based epoxy painted walls instead of veneer, they put on it with a stippled finish which is prone to getting mold in the crevasses and prone to peeling off in areas where there is hull flex, formica countertops instead of corian, carpet floors instead of hardwood that really pick up the mold far more, very basic plastic faucets and cheap plastic lighting fixtures, the veneer that was used wasn't sealed at the top and bottom so it would show water penetration after a few years and looks horrible after 5 years, the non skid is a paint on rather than gelcoat molded and needed to be redone after 5 years, the bilges have no alarms. The original 50s were similarly decked out with the same cheap plastic light fixtures which would discolor under the heat of the halogen lights and while they had a teak and holly floor veneer, it was of a cheap quality and would bubble up when wet. The wiring while tinned wasn't marine grade stamped and the jacketing of the wiring is prone to breaking when flexed and more than a few years old. Also the mold process wasn't shown with great attention to imperfections so you can easily see spots where it wasn't faired completely (I can easily see where our boats transom was extended from 43 to 44 ft). The hatches and windows were sealed in with a caulking that degraded in sunlight, as it was black it weeps black stain all over the decks when wet and they are prone to leaking. The foreward bow sections have particle board floors instead of sealed fiberglass crash compartments and therefore warp when wet, the coating in the water tanks was prone to flaking, the engine compartments were extremely cramped with access on only one side instead of on the top and unlit. The rigging is basic stainless steel and the lifelines are as well uncoated stainless with the chain plates coming through the deck and attached inside which makes it more prone to leaking and corrosion, nothing wrong with that, but it's nothing compared to dyneema rigging on the FastCat. So I have a strong, well laid out boat, a great sailor, and a perfectly competent circumnavigator, but it's far more workman like (the words actually used to describe the SF 50 by Cruising World as well) than a french boat or a new St Francis 50 for that matter.

It's attention to detail that really makes a great boat, and frankly though I know some people have been having a bit of a spitting war as of late, african cat does seem to show that attention to detail. At least far more than SF showed a few years ago. African cat seems to think about every single aspect of the boat, including that carbon fiber table and it's weight (like a gunboat does). St Francis simply didn't have that attitude a few years ago.

I'm not knocking a SF, they probably do more circumnavigations as a percentage of boats than just about anything out there, but historically they were known as a strong, fast boat builder, but again, not by any means plush. And I do trust you when you say they made in a completely different manner and materials now.
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Old 17-08-2008, 09:28   #68
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Looking for a Cat

Hi everyone

We too are looking for a cat not dissimilar to other topic points. We are looking at Lagoon and are concerened whether to go for diesel or the Hybrid - anyone have any experience of a logoon hybrid?

Cheers
bob
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Old 17-08-2008, 09:34   #69
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Hi everyone

We too are looking for a cat not dissimilar to other topic points. We are looking at Lagoon and are concerened whether to go for diesel or the Hybrid - anyone have any experience of a logoon hybrid?

Cheers
bob
Hallo Bob
there is a complete thread on the lagoon 42 hybrid
Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Greetings
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Old 18-09-2008, 02:52   #70
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What is the weight of the Fastcat 455? Joke.....


I have a new toplist:

1# Nordic Cat 49, i looking forward to pics and more info.
2# Antares 44i and Privilege 435/445
3# Dolphin 460 and Orana 44.
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Old 18-09-2008, 03:03   #71
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I would like to get more info with what fastcat said about this asi can see an outboard making more sence with a cat but total 20HP a 20 HP inboard wouldent push much so why has an outboard so much power.

Somebody I know used to own the First Wildcat ever build and he use 2 x 9.9 hp outboards If I recall well and was happy with the result.
Years ago I owned a Mc Gregor 36 , few people will know this cat buty 15 HP worked just fine on the 36 ft cat
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Old 18-09-2008, 03:06   #72
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fastcat
This word make me tired...
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Old 18-09-2008, 09:05   #73
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I can see an outboard making more sence with a cat but total 20HP a 20 HP inboard wouldent push much so why has an outboard so much power.
This so depends on what you are trying to do with the cat.

I owned a 9m catalac that had a 27hp diesel outboard. in calm conditions I had trouble keeping up with similar boats with the 9.9 outboard with a prop designed for the job (mine wasnt). However, as soon as conditions deteriorated and you have to push against significant wind, the small outboards were stopped, and I could continue even direct against 40 kts of wind (and the catalac has a lot of windage) This is where outboards have a problem. They also have a very poor electric output.
Modern cruising cats use lots of power for all the toys.

If you are talking speed, then lightweight is the most important. If you are talking cruising, then comfort is more important (well it is for me). the ability to cruise all day happily on one engine using very small amounts of fuel, and know that my batteries are good. I have tried it the otherway and was not impressed.
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Old 18-09-2008, 17:17   #74
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Thanks the reason i`m asking is i`m about to fly 3000 mile to look at a 38ft with twin 9.9 outboards and it just seams to under powered (not that Ive been on it yet) I guess ill have to wate till the sea trial.
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Old 19-09-2008, 02:59   #75
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38 ft with twin 9.9s Must be a very lightweight boat. probably a speed machine. I would suspect that it would have a problem with liveaboard additional weights.

During your sea trial check the state of the tanks (fuel/water)

I have seen a boat of this size with twin 27hp diesel outboards, but that is a major cost difference!!!!
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