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Old 03-08-2010, 08:42   #46
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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I dont know how you can say that. ratios usually need two things to actually be a ratio, you know like capsizes per 100,000 sea miles or something similar. On what basis do you deride the designer? On what basis do you say he has a bad safety record, On what basis do you question his inherent design?
I think bayview was referencing the formula originated by ted brewer:

Capsize Screening Formula (commonly known as "capsize ratio") = Beam (in feet)/(Displacement (in lbs) /64)superscript 1/3
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:53   #47
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In my last cat I had an undersized shackle on the mainsheet to car that blew when it was loaded to high
I wonder if the outhaul could be rigged to fail instead of the mainsheet. I can't imaging having the boom flying free would be much fun and I suspect that the boom could hit the shroud and take out the rig.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:28   #48
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I wonder if the outhaul could be rigged to fail instead of the mainsheet. I can't imaging having the boom flying free would be much fun and I suspect that the boom could hit the shroud and take out the rig.
I like the electric solenoid idea...that coupled with a boom break could possibly do the trick.

Yes I know we are getting awfully techie here but shoot!...were talking over a million dollar investment here.

The solenoid could be triggered by several sensors...one being degree of attitude....and manually of course.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:20   #49
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Hmm, let see, over the past 2 months:
1) Cheeky Monkey, Ontario 300 flipped in squall.
2) PDQ 32 flipped in gusts to 40.
3) Prescott flipped day sailing in Airlie.
4) Yeloya almost flipped a new 25 knots.
5) Anna flipped when working upwind when hit by heavy gust. 16 to 60 micro burst.

These are average sailing conditions, we all sail through these weather events during any typical season.

As cats become more popular I fear we'll read about more and more of this. When cruising, you don't tend sheets constantly, they are cleated and you stand watch.

People like multi's for a whole host of reasons that are valid but claiming they can't go over in "ordinary conditions" is proving to be a fallacy.


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Old 03-08-2010, 10:49   #50
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Assuming a loose-footed main, it wouldn't be too difficult to design an outhaul that would attach to the sail via some type of pressure clip rather than a shackle. Similar to the systems that release fishing line from an outrigger after a fish strikes. Biggest advantage here is that the boom doesn't become a weapon of mass destruction -- it stays sheeted in place even after the main is blown.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:18   #51
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guessing this can be applied to a larger boat

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:19   #52
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CWD atlantic's have minikeels for the most part. So even if you had the daggerboards up, you still have something to "trip" over. I believe the logic is to prevent damage to the rudders, and props.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:39   #53
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Originally Posted by Agility View Post
I wonder if the outhaul could be rigged to fail instead of the mainsheet. I can't imaging having the boom flying free would be much fun and I suspect that the boom could hit the shroud and take out the rig.
The shackle on my boom let go on my last run from Mexico to Hawaii... Loud and annoying more than anything else. I've also had a clew blow out of my main and blown out reef lines. It is easier to just tuck in a new reef when the outhaul/reef goes but putting in a new shackle is not a big deal once you have the sail down and the boom back under control -- I have a tackle that I can rig as a preventer and it works nicely for this as you don't have to get to the end of the boom to get the thing stable.

Tom
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:07   #54
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Hmm, let see, over the past 2 months:
1) Cheeky Monkey, Ontario 300 flipped in squall.
2) PDQ 32 flipped in gusts to 40.
3) Prescott flipped day sailing in Airlie.
4) Yeloya almost flipped a new 25 knots.
5) Anna flipped when working upwind when hit by heavy gust. 16 to 60 micro burst.

These are average sailing conditions, we all sail through these weather events during any typical season.

As cats become more popular I fear we'll read about more and more of this. When cruising, you don't tend sheets constantly, they are cleated and you stand watch.

People like multi's for a whole host of reasons that are valid but claiming they can't go over in "ordinary conditions" is proving to be a fallacy.
I like cats, have owned 3, and agree with you completely.

I have self-tailing winches, but I also have cam-cleats, where I keep the sheets when it's blowing.

I feel EVERY cat sailor should do a multi-year aprenticeship in beach cats. That should include sailing in thunderstorms and too much wind a few times. There is simply no other way to learn the required lessons and to learn humility in front of nature. Most, if not all of these capsizes, were avoidable. They were not the boat's fault. Cats do sail through those conditions--I certainly have met most of them. I avoid them whenever I can.

I think they are easy to handle in tough weather, but they have a set of rules that takes time in a small boat to learn.

_______________________________________

Regarding break-away rigging, I think that is nuts and no builder will do it. If my rigging won't allow me to push HARD when beating off a lee shore, it is poor rigging. I am the one that needs to know when to reef, when to feather, and when to bear off.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:11   #55
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Hmm, let see, over the past 2 months:
1) Cheeky Monkey, Ontario 300 flipped in squall.
2) PDQ 32 flipped in gusts to 40.
3) Prescott flipped day sailing in Airlie.
4) Yeloya almost flipped a new 25 knots.
5) Anna flipped when working upwind when hit by heavy gust. 16 to 60 micro burst.

These are average sailing conditions, we all sail through these weather events during any typical season.

As cats become more popular I fear we'll read about more and more of this. When cruising, you don't tend sheets constantly, they are cleated and you stand watch.

People like multi's for a whole host of reasons that are valid but claiming they can't go over in "ordinary conditions" is proving to be a fallacy.

1) was racing and has a record of pushing too hard.
2) was a small boat in a fully developed gale.
3) I don't know about.
4) didn't flip and it isn't clear how close a call it was.
5) capsized in conditions very similar to the ones that recently capsized a 188' monohull inspected, professionally crewed school training ship "Concordia".

I think you're cherry picking events to support a claim that is very overstated. Cruising multis do not capsize in "ordinary" conditions. There are big fleets of them in all the typical trade wind sailing spots that are bare-boated by complete duffers in winds to 25ish knots and capsize is exceedingly rare. Sailing entails risks and it can be useful to consider them. I prefer to start with the known facts (limited though they are) and develop hypotheses about the risks and possible prevention. I think you're starting from a conclusion and marshaling cases to support it. Seems backwards and unhelpful to me.

Tom
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:27   #56
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Joli,

What tsmwebb said!

You might want to think about a career in politics! (Hope I don't get booted for that...)

Fair Winds,
Mike
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:38   #57
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I think as there are more multis youll see more multis do more things.
It does need to be kept in perspective. I have pushed my f-27 pretty damn hard. It is a thrill to be flying on the edge. It is however on the edge. I am aware of that and so I hope you don't fear hearing about me flipping the thing. I would rather not but its my choice and going really fast is why I have the tri. I don't do the to the edge when my 9 year old is aboard. I really dont like the cat vs mono thing their sailboats with different advantages. Never understood why it is such a contentious issue. Then again I'm Bihulled or quad something....
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:56   #58
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I have said this before on the forum: Fewer cats = less data. Cats have only really been out there in a big way in recent years. It will be years before we really can make certain kinds of comparisons.

I think both types have advantages and disadvantages and so it comes down to personal choice and the money in your pocket (or how much you can borrow).
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Old 03-08-2010, 13:15   #59
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they have a set of rules that takes time in a small boat to learn.
I dunno about the small boat / cat being essential (although I can see why would be very useful - same for a Mono Dinghy) but I don't see why what you state should be anything but long established and universally accepted plain common sense (or sea sense?) for any boat (Cats not excepted). and that's plain as in plain obvious as the nose on yer face.

Every boat has design characteristics (not the same as flaws) that need to be considered, and for Cats that includes once inverted will likely stay that way. and a situation best avoided. and that given the right (wrong) circumstances, probably involving lots of wind and the right (wrong) wave action that a Cat will flip. Same as a Mono (even if the required circumstances will differ). (whether or not someone considers a Mono would have sunk in the same circumstances will not matter if it's "you" with an upturned Cat or vice verce).

The key is to consider the possibility before you roll (prevention being better than cure), and to do that you need to accept it is a possibility (no matter how remote). In the Mono example given earlier - during a roll wouldn't want all the hatches wide open - therefore you a) recognise the possibility and b) shut them securely or accept the risk. In an ocean during squalls I would argue prudent to shut the hatches - it's not a design flaw, it's a characteristic that the Skipper deals with. or not. Saying that ain't any cat flipping consideration to self or on internet don't change reality. Peddling a myth of invulnerability to others is homicidal (but not a regular reader of CF multihull forum, so maybe that delusion is no longer as actively and robustly peddled as in years past?).

Anyone who ventures to sea (let alone into an ocean) and considers their boat will always be somehow immune to the worst (or most inconveniant) that nature can throw at you is living in la la land. No matter the design. the equipment. size of cheque. the prevailing internet opinion. or the "safe" dream that the salesmen peddle. Whether for a Cat, a Mono or........a Pedallo.

Does all that make Cats "unsafe"? Of course not But then again sailing in an Ocean has never been Disneyland style "safe"
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:54   #60
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"QUOTE"Cause was wind. Seas were 3 meters, no other problems. They were sailing upwind under single reefed main and full jib in 16-18kts with squalls in the area for the previous 24 hrs. The squall that hit didn't look any different visually or by radar (they were checking each squall they approached). Wind built to 62kts almost immediately (62 was highest owner saw, but not sure if that was highest the boat saw).
"UNQUOTE"


Maybe someone can help.. If the wind can go up from 17-18 knts to 62 "almost immediately", then none of us should be sailing.. My guess; 90 % of ANY cat would be flipped down the rest losing the rig for sure + possibly some MOB and seriously wounded crew. Useless to discuss, in case of mono, it would be close to that, if not worst (sinking boat..)

It seems that they were prudent people sailing at 16-18 knts with one reef on the main. The next to that is not sailing at all !!!

My question to those who sails in these areas are:

1-how often one can experience this kind of change of wind in open sea WİTHOUT any sign at all ? (radar views, meteorogical alert of any kind, diving barometer, strange and unusual clouds, growing seas, etc)
2-I've heard that in this kind of situation, the rigging of a multihull catamaran should go down before the flip over. I know this is not nice. But isn't it better to be derigged rather than being upside down ??

Cheers

Yeloya
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