Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Chris & Mike,

Thanks for that very valuable feedback, and examples of challenging conditions. Particularly the Hydrographers Passage thu the GBR, I've heard hairy stories about that before.

Now I'll ask some questions and they are meant to explore whether there are alternative strategies to relying on motoring straight ahead into big wind & seas.

Firstly, the judicious use of a sea anchor to stay put. Could some of those situations have been mitigated by laying in open water and lying to a parachute anchor until more favorable conditions?

I suspect the times you want that power are mostly in near shore or congested waterways.

But if you are a thousand miles from land, it's more a question of how do you cut your passage time. Let's say there is a medical issue...most diesel powered boats have a range at least in the hundreds of miles, so you have the option to run the motor if the wind isn't cooperating at least until you get within range of a larger ship or shore based choppers. If there is no issue and you have plenty of supplies, it's mostly because people want to get the passage over with.

Secondly, forereaching into the seas making slow but steady headway, (maybe with opposite motor ticking over to give a rounding up "kick" when needed?) instead of running on a deeper reach and running broadside to large, perhaps breaking, seas? This would not be suitable in tight spots such as Hydrographers Passage obviously. BTW, this is the tactic we used coming back from Lord Howe against horrendous breaking seas( no, no parachute anchor aboard unfortunately).

Thirdly, what HP diesels are needed for a cat to motor into what wind/wave conditions? I guess from both of you I'm hearing that 40HP at WOT is needed to make headway against 40 knot seas? What SOG did that give you?

We have a small 34' cat with a 25hp motor. We've ran flat out against something on the order of 35kt winds and were only making around 3kts in calm waves (on the ICW). Luckily it was only a couple of miles. Take it up to 40kts and waves killing your momentum and 40hp is probably going to be needed to make any headway.

This will be valuable information to assess the Kw motors needed & size of the EP battery bank AND the DC genset size.

FWIW, I don't think it is feasible (ie weight, space & cost) on an average size cruising cat, to have gensets big enough to run the motors WOT for hours on end. It is feasible to have an LFP bank big enough to run WOT on one motor for 2 hours, and for cruising speed, quite a bit longer. Running 2 motors WOT would not give much more speed but would drain the bank much quicker.

I doesn't make financial sense, but you could certainly mount a 40-60hp generator on a 40'+ cat. At that point, you could go with a much smaller battery pack based mostly on house loads.

Anyway your thoughts on the viability, or otherwise, laying to a parachute anchor and forereaching would be greatly appreciated in the context of an EP solution.

Sure there are alternatives. People sailed the oceans for centuries before diesel engines became available.

It gets repeated on just about every electric motor thread. Electric motors are completely viable if you are willing to live with substantially reduced capabilities. Most cruisers aren't willing to do this when the current technology works so well.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Running 2 motors WOT would not give much more speed but would drain the bank much quicker.

However running two motors at a high throttle setting, if not WOT, will make a big difference when pushing into a strong headwind.

The argument that you can size electric motors at around 60% of the ICE engines a boat would have, because most of the time the ICE's only run at about 60% power is fine, as long as you accept that you'll be running your electrics at WOT 100% of the time to get equivalent performance.

And you'll have ZERO power in reserve for when you might need or want it, like sprinting across bars or pushing a strong headwind to get into a coral infested anchorage in good light. These are times we've run our engines WOT, not for hours, maybe 1/2 an hour or so.

But if you're electrics are only 60% size, that option doesn't exist.

[PSea]

Pretty funny thread.

Post 17 is someone who has sailed thousands of miles using EP on a self admittedly, heavy 41' Lagoon cat and all the naysayers brush right past it and continue throwing out straw arguments & false facts which clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding. In the context of distance cruising, I'd love to know how many here have both a diesel engine and a generator.
(especially those in Cat's)

By the same token, I really wish proponents of EP wouldn't take the bait. It doesn't help when one accepts the basis of some of the foolish arguments against EP.

1. Can EP be sized to properly push a boat at hull speed? Yes

2. Can it push the boat at hull speed for as long as a diesel engine can? On just batteries? Nope. But who's advocating that?? Most EP distance cruisers will have a generator which provides just as much range as a diesel engine. However, the generator will do so at a lower fuel consumption rate, more quietly and more efficiently since the generator is tuned to provide power at more optimal loads.

3. I've yet to find a single proponent (cruiser category) of EP who advocates solar or wind as the sole source of charging. You turn on the generator just like you start the diesel engines or your generator. Pretty simple. That said, solar/wind are great sources to top batteries whether EP or strictly diesel.

4. These wild figures for battery banks and horsepower are pretty funny. Start w/ your boat's displacement. Check w/ those THAT USE EP. Ask them how they calculated their power requirements. Most will tell you that you need 1-2kW per ton. That tells you what size motor you need. The motor size dictates the appropriate generator size.

5. Since no one using EP is suggesting their battery banks are limitless sources of energy why do you proponents keep taking the bait? Their diesel engines don't have a limitless supply of diesel. It's a ridiculous argument. Don't take the bait.

6. If you have a 55hp diesel engine. You don't need a 55hp EP system. You guys advocating this simply haven't done any research. You need 55hp diesel because of the torque curve. You need significantly less EQUIVALENT hp for EP. Torque is the reason. I suggest you do more reading.

7. If your boat is equipped with a diesel engine and generator as most serious cruisers have, let's compare. Any distance cruiser using EP/generator has one less engine to service and all the parts, filters & crawling into tight spots to access it. So EP definitely cuts down on maintenance and it's much, much quieter. No idling. No warming up and you don't need a generator to leave the doc's. Interesting how everyone complains about boats being about fixing things in remote places. Well EP has one less MAJOR component to fix. For those times one has to start the generator....well, you didn't purchase your generator to just have it sit there (which isn't good for a generator).

8. Battery banks. It's not much different for EP/gen vs a straight diesel set up. You decide what you're power consumption is going to be and size your bank appropriately. This is a battery discussion not an EP discussion. EP has one more way to charge than diesel unless you spend a boatload on a hydro generator. If you want less weight and the ability to discharge to lower levels you pick one type of battery. If you're cost conscious, you'll pick another source. I fail to see how this is a knock against EP as there are far more threads discussing this w/ diesel power vs EP. Again, a null argument.

9. EP electrical system complexity. Really?? Are you really going to advocate a diesel engine + a generator to recharge is any less complex?? (alternators, dual alternator systems, inverters, converters, chargers, blah, blah blah). Point being, you as the owner decide the complexity of the system, that's not EP's fault....it's the owner's fault.

10. Single point of failure. I got a kick out of this one. What do you do when your diesel engine fails? You fix it. I fail to see why this is an argument exclusive to EP. In fact, electric motors have a MUCH HIGHER life cycle. I'd be willing to bet even a novice EP user can switch out a controller faster than you can change out the starter or a fuel pump.

11. Prop drag. Another funny one. You can put the EP in gear just enough to minimize all prop drag at the most negligible amounts of draw. Voila! Zero drag.

12. Some ancillary benefits. A cleaner bilge is nice.

Look, if you have a nice boat w/ a couple good working diesel engines, I agree, it's a very expensive proposition switching to EP. If you don't have the nicest boat, there are plenty who are starting to replace diesel w/ EP as DIY projects and it's a VERY inexpensive proposition vs an engine rebuild. If you're lucky enough to be starting from scratch, I wouldn't think twice. Without hesitation, I'd go EP on a new boat. Do it right and it works very well. Do it wrong and well, it doesn't matter what your talking about when it comes to cruising. It's guaranteed to be a nightmare.

PSea

ps - if Octopus is still following this thread, I'd love to know what they'd do differently in hindsight. I've found your posts very enlightening.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by PSea

Pretty funny thread.

Post 17 is someone who has sailed thousands of miles using EP on a self admittedly, heavy 41' Lagoon cat and all the naysayers brush right past it and continue throwing out straw arguments & false facts which clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding. In the context of distance cruising, I'd love to know how many here have both a diesel engine and a generator.
(especially those in Cat's)

By the same token, I really wish proponents of EP wouldn't take the bait. It doesn't help when one accepts the basis of some of the foolish arguments against EP.

1. Can EP be sized to properly push a boat at hull speed? Yes
I don't recall anyone saying you couldn't set up a boat to have a short burst at hull speed. Since few people drag race their cruising boats, not really relevant.

2. Can it push the boat at hull speed for as long as a diesel engine can? On just batteries? Nope. But who's advocating that?? Most EP distance cruisers will have a generator which provides just as much range as a diesel engine. However, the generator will do so at a lower fuel consumption rate, more quietly and more efficiently since the generator is tuned to provide power at more optimal loads.
Actually, many are advocating just that. A battery bank with solar or wind power to regenerate.

As far as generators go, a 4-5kw generator with additional losses will not replace 30-50kw of propulsion power.

Efficiency will be worse with the generator as your typical propulsion motor is selected to operate at peak efficiency at cruise speed, so the generator doesn't gain anything in that respect but does lose efficiency converting mechanical power to electric and back again. So it's not really going to have the same range. Not a drastic loss but certainly not an advantage.


3. I've yet to find a single proponent (cruiser category) of EP who advocates solar or wind as the sole source of charging. You turn on the generator just like you start the diesel engines or your generator. Pretty simple. That said, solar/wind are great sources to top batteries whether EP or strictly diesel.

I suggest a search of electric power threads. There are lots of them. In fact the majority I would say are trying to eliminate the diesel engine. If you are going to simply turn on the generator and use the electric motors effectively as a transmission replacement, why bother?

4. These wild figures for battery banks and horsepower are pretty funny. Start w/ your boat's displacement. Check w/ those THAT USE EP. Ask them how they calculated their power requirements. Most will tell you that you need 1-2kW per ton. That tells you what size motor you need. The motor size dictates the appropriate generator size.

Exact same way you select the motor size for a diesel engine. Remember, the HP for a cruising boat is typically controlled by the power needed to maintain cruising speed plus a bit extra to counter adverse conditions.

5. Since no one using EP is suggesting their battery banks are limitless sources of energy why do you proponents keep taking the bait? Their diesel engines don't have a limitless supply of diesel. It's a ridiculous argument. Don't take the bait.

I suggest googling "order of magnitude". At typical cruise speed, you would need a massive battery bank at a massive price to provide even 100miles of range. If you go with a more modest battery bank, you would be lucky to get 20miles range. Diesel boats with a low range might have 300-500miles range.

PS: This seems to conflict with your point 2 that everyone will simply crank up the generator every time they want to motor. Which is it? Battery bank or generator?


6. If you have a 55hp diesel engine. You don't need a 55hp EP system. You guys advocating this simply haven't done any research. You need 55hp diesel because of the torque curve. You need significantly less EQUIVALENT hp for EP. Torque is the reason. I suggest you do more reading.

We've already debunked the "magic" electric HP. I suggest you do a little research. The controlling factor for HP on a cruising boat is cruise speed. You need just as much HP to maintain a particular speed in particular conditions regardless of the power source.

The instant torque will offer better acceleration but unless you are drag racing with your cruising boat, it is at best a minor consideration.

7. If your boat is equipped with a diesel engine and generator as most serious cruisers have, let's compare. Any distance cruiser using EP/generator has one less engine to service and all the parts, filters & crawling into tight spots to access it. So EP definitely cuts down on maintenance and it's much, much quieter. No idling. No warming up and you don't need a generator to leave the doc's. Interesting how everyone complains about boats being about fixing things in remote places. Well EP has one less MAJOR component to fix. For those times one has to start the generator....well, you didn't purchase your generator to just have it sit there (which isn't good for a generator).

I actually agree with you on this one to a degree. I agree that it's no worse maintenance wise. I disagree when you start claiming it's quieter and more reliable. If you are putting out 30-40hp, it's going to make a similar amount of noise. Likewise, you are replacing one item that can break down with another item that can break down.

8. Battery banks. It's not much different for EP/gen vs a straight diesel set up. You decide what you're power consumption is going to be and size your bank appropriately. This is a battery discussion not an EP discussion. EP has one more way to charge than diesel unless you spend a boatload on a hydro generator. If you want less weight and the ability to discharge to lower levels you pick one type of battery. If you're cost conscious, you'll pick another source. I fail to see how this is a knock against EP as there are far more threads discussing this w/ diesel power vs EP. Again, a null argument.

If you are simply putting in a less efficient, more costly diesel-electric drivetrain, yes, the battery bank is largely irrelevant to the discussion.

Go read some of the threads that do have people wanting significant range off the battery bank and come back to discuss.

9. EP electrical system complexity. Really?? Are you really going to advocate a diesel engine + a generator to recharge is any less complex?? (alternators, dual alternator systems, inverters, converters, chargers, blah, blah blah). Point being, you as the owner decide the complexity of the system, that's not EP's fault....it's the owner's fault.

I thought you said, every true cruiser has a generator. Why would they have dual alternators, inverters converters, blah, blah, blah (as you put it) if they have a generator?

Then again, where were people saying they were too complicated? They are a different kind of complicated but not necessarily worse.


10. Single point of failure. I got a kick out of this one. What do you do when your diesel engine fails? You fix it. I fail to see why this is an argument exclusive to EP. In fact, electric motors have a MUCH HIGHER life cycle. I'd be willing to bet even a novice EP user can switch out a controller faster than you can change out the starter or a fuel pump.

The motor may or may not have a higher life living down in a wet corrosive bilge. I certainly wouldn't buy low volume specialty electronics that control that electric motor are more reliable.

11. Prop drag. Another funny one. You can put the EP in gear just enough to minimize all prop drag at the most negligible amounts of draw. Voila! Zero drag.

I don't think prop drag is a big issue but are you saying you are going to leave the generator running all the time just to keep the prop at zero drag? You said, we would just use our generator and not the battery bank.

12. Some ancillary benefits. A cleaner bilge is nice.

I don't have a dirty bilge. Also if you have propulsion diesel that is leaking fluids, you could just as easily have a generator diesel leaking fluids.

Look, if you have a nice boat w/ a couple good working diesel engines, I agree, it's a very expensive proposition switching to EP. If you don't have the nicest boat, there are plenty who are starting to replace diesel w/ EP as DIY projects and it's a VERY inexpensive proposition vs an engine rebuild. If you're lucky enough to be starting from scratch, I wouldn't think twice. Without hesitation, I'd go EP on a new boat. Do it right and it works very well. Do it wrong and well, it doesn't matter what your talking about when it comes to cruising. It's guaranteed to be a nightmare.

The only way it comes out cheaper is if you accept drastic reductions in capabilities. Also, rebuilding a diesel isn't too expensive if you do it yourself. A cruiser who can DIY an electric drivetrain including the installation of a diesel generator is likely to have the skill set to rebuild a diesel drivetrain.

PSea

ps - if Octopus is still following this thread, I'd love to know what they'd do differently in hindsight. I've found your posts very enlightening.

They "naysayers" have been saying all along, you can build a functional electric powered boat. I don't recall anyone saying it can't be done. The problem is cost, size and capability. One or more of those must be sacrificed in order to do it. There is no magic way around it and that explains why mass production cruising boats aren't being built with electric propulsion. Those who are doing the conversion have made the choice for one reason or another and they are ready to make major sacrifices to get it.

[Nammy]

Okay so, I got tired of reading by page 8. Lots of rampant speculation. I will attempt to settle a few arguments by posting the results of my refit. My boat isn't a cat but, it's heavy. I'm putting an electric hybrid in my Westsail 32. Pulling her out tomorrow. I will have a 3k propane generator to back up the system and a meager 500 watts or so of solar. The name of the system I chose is Electrprop's Islander plus. I may buy more batteries in the future but, for now, I'll get the basics on that end. Now, I'm a bit of a purist but, I just took the boat over 300 nm on the shakedown cruise and, I never used my engine at hull speed, once. I think I hit 2000rpm once on accident. So, as far as all the worries about range, if I wanted to keep the prop turning, on a sunny day, I can do 3-5 kt just on solar. When the sun goes down, that's just a trickle off the battery. Most "motoring" for a sailor is done in the marina. More trickling. I will never power up my prop at full speed for long periods and, if I do, I have the 3k generator that will take me as far as any propane I have on the boat. That leaves plenty of power to get through some bad current for a couple hours or claw off a Lee shore at night. As far as cost, the install is totally comparable with the cost of a standard petrol replacement.
Now, to the benefits. No fuel or tanks. No oil, no antifreeze. No extra parts all over my boat. No filters. NO THRU HULLS! One... ONE, moving part. No smoke, no dirty bilge, no dirty engine room, no warm up time. No noise, no vibration, no stank!
I still have no proof that it will work but, as a trained diesel mechanic, I can't wait to get this f'n thing off my boat!

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ranchero76]

And yet it moves!
Electric propulsion DOES work (in hybrid form) even without sails! And no, no powerful diesels needed. Please note - this is REAL boat, not some theoretical thing. And yes, it can be at sea for extended period of time, it's not just day cruiser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOk1Vtj4ENs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e2WxVvBU8o

[ranchero76]

Just imagine - rigging maintenance/repairs/replacement = zero. Sails maintenance/repairs/replacement = zero. Diesels maintenance/repairs = zero. Noise from engines = zero most of the time. Yes, electrical/electronic skills required (besides generator service/repairs), but that's easy! Just WOW!
And design they've used for Solarwave 62 - not the best in my opinion, it can be optimized so at least 50% more solar panels can be fitted, also solar panels can be made adjustable to the sun, so they will produce twice as much energy.

[Nahbrown]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

And yet it moves!
Electric propulsion DOES work (in hybrid form) even without sails! And no, no powerful diesels needed. Please note - this is REAL boat, not some theoretical thing. And yes, it can be at sea for extended period of time, it's not just day cruiser.

Very cool. It was only a matter of time.

[Stumble]

As soon as Solarwave decides to release actual numbers it will be relavent. So far as I am aware they have announced it has a max speed of 10kn, a cruising speed of 4kn, and a max range of 100nm. But that max range is probably at minimal range in perfect conditions. Since they have refused to specify range at a given speed, it's one step better than vapor ware.

Frankly the company is generating a reputation as a scam, because despite having been in design and build for years they have yet to release actual numbers on the systems. But hey I really hope I am wrong, I just doubt it.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Stumble

As soon as Solarwave decides to release actual numbers it will be relavent. So far as I am aware they have announced it has a max speed of 10kn, a cruising speed of 4kn, and a max range of 100nm. But that max range is probably at minimal range in perfect conditions. Since they have refused to specify range at a given speed, it's one step better than vapor ware.

Frankly the company is generating a reputation as a scam, because despite having been in design and build for years they have yet to release actual numbers on the systems. But hey I really hope I am wrong, I just doubt it.

Hey, don't confuse the issue with facts.

I don't know how many times we can say it. If you are willing to live with substantially reduced capabilities and/or substantially increased costs, electric is viable today.

If you want the capability and cost that the typical cruiser expects today in diesel, you simply can't provide it with electric.

If you look at the two recent examples on this thread, one was talking about 3kt cruising speed and the other is a one off prototype where they are vague about cost and performance (conveniently mixing 100mile range with 10kt speed, when anyone not in love with the idea of electric power realizes that you get one or the other not both in the same day...unless yo spring for a LARGE generator).

[ranchero76]

Guys, before stating anything, you'd better read about subject first. Solarwave capable 24/7 cruising with generator help in case extended (few days in the row) cruising in bad weather. It also capable 20+ knots on hybrid (battery+generator) power. Therefore, it has UNLIMITED range, not 100 miles as some of you stating

Solarwave 62′ Luxury Zero emission Yacht – Nedshipgroup

2016 Solarwave 62 Cruiser Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Guys, before stating anything, you'd better read about subject first. Solarwave capable 24/7 cruising with generator help in case extended (few days in the row) cruising in bad weather. It also capable 20+ knots on hybrid (battery+generator) power. Therefore, it has UNLIMITED range, not 100 miles as some of you stating

Solarwave 62′ Luxury Zero emission Yacht – Nedshipgroup

2016 Solarwave 62 Cruiser Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Interesting specifications:
Electric motor specified: 2 powerful electric motors
Solar array: Powerful solar array
Generator: Range-Extender – sufficient to supply both e-motors and household if necessary

These are direct quotes from the specifications.

How many HP in a "powerful"?


Sure looks like they are avoiding giving you the details. My guess is if you see the details, it won't look nearly as good as they make it sound.

[ranchero76]

The yacht's roof is clad with a 15 kW photovoltaic array connected to a series of 100 kWh batteries. The number of batteries can change depending on the yacht owner's needs. The system is designed to provide enough energy for the yacht to cruise on zero emissions, as well as power all household appliances on board (night and day).
"Our yacht is a real solar powered yacht, most solar powered yachts only use the solar panels to support their electrical system ... a little bit," says Faiss. "Ours allows unlimited use without refueling."
With two e-motors (41 kW continuous and 62 kW peak) on board, the yacht can cruise at speeds between 7 and 13 knots without the need to utilize additional fuel sources during sunny conditions and light winds. When the vessel is moored in the marina and there is no need to hook up to a power supply and night time cruising is also possible, with the distance and speed dependent on the the size of the battery bank. There's also a standard emergency generator included – with the Solarwave 62' is 8 kW, but Nedship will also offer upgrades from 12 to 20 kW, or a 30 kW MME turbine generator.
"We can play with the size of the engines according to special client wishes," says Faiss. "We also want to point out, that there is more or less no maintenance needed on the e-motors compared with traditional diesel engines."
Of course, to get full benefit from the Solarwave owners will have to change some habits, including being diligent when it comes to things like switching off appliances when not in use.
Other major features of the Solarwave 62' design include a retractable sky roof, a 6.5m (21.3 ft) tender garage, a modern luxury interior complete with full kitchen and lounge, three to five guest cabins, an additional cabin for crew, rear and front sun decks and ample outdoor dining space.
"Most of the furniture is a part of the structure, which saves weight and brings more space," says Faiss.

Solarwave 62 zero emission luxury yacht nears completion

[ranchero76]

I repeat - just like design of sail boats is specific because of sails, design of solar boats should become specific because of solar panels. Retractable flat roof with retractable left and right panels, extending when in calm sea and doubling (at least) solar power. Making array with adjustable angle also will help to increase the power. This will easily allow to get 30kW and more on sunny day just from solar panels.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

The yacht's roof is clad with a 15 kW photovoltaic array connected to a series of 100 kWh batteries. The number of batteries can change depending on the yacht owner's needs. The system is designed to provide enough energy for the yacht to cruise on zero emissions, as well as power all household appliances on board (night and day).
"Our yacht is a real solar powered yacht, most solar powered yachts only use the solar panels to support their electrical system ... a little bit," says Faiss. "Ours allows unlimited use without refueling."
With two e-motors (41 kW continuous and 62 kW peak) on board, the yacht can cruise at speeds between 7 and 13 knots without the need to utilize additional fuel sources during sunny conditions and light winds. When the vessel is moored in the marina and there is no need to hook up to a power supply and night time cruising is also possible, with the distance and speed dependent on the the size of the battery bank. There's also a standard emergency generator included – with the Solarwave 62' is 8 kW, but Nedship will also offer upgrades from 12 to 20 kW, or a 30 kW MME turbine generator.
"We can play with the size of the engines according to special client wishes," says Faiss. "We also want to point out, that there is more or less no maintenance needed on the e-motors compared with traditional diesel engines."
Of course, to get full benefit from the Solarwave owners will have to change some habits, including being diligent when it comes to things like switching off appliances when not in use.
Other major features of the Solarwave 62' design include a retractable sky roof, a 6.5m (21.3 ft) tender garage, a modern luxury interior complete with full kitchen and lounge, three to five guest cabins, an additional cabin for crew, rear and front sun decks and ample outdoor dining space.
"Most of the furniture is a part of the structure, which saves weight and brings more space," says Faiss.

Solarwave 62 zero emission luxury yacht nears completion

I had a detailed explanation of the limitations put together but you are a true believer so no amount of facts will change your mind.

If you can really run 82kw worth of motors off 15kw of solar panels while achieving 10kts for 10 continuous hours all in a package no more expensive than the equivalent diesel powered boat, we have seen the end diesel powered boats...we've also seen the end of physics as we know it but hey as long as you believe hard enough anything is possible.