Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-02-2010, 15:46   #16
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
which two are a sealskin kayak designed to?

And calling 'more solidly built' safer is to choose one specific characteristic and say that is the measure of safety. If you took that approach to its ultimate end, you would built a boat so solid it didn't move no matter what the conditions. Make the hull fifteen feet thick, so nothing short of a bunker buster could penetrate them. Make it draw so much water that it actually sits on the bottom. Increase the beam until it is impossible to turn over. It would be safe, all right. But it wouldn't be a boat. It would be an artificial island.
__________________

__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 07:20   #17
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Canibul, no one is saying that there is only one characteristic that is important for an offshore boat. Furthermore, your reductio ad absurdum argument (if you are concerned about solidity in a boat, you will end up with a brick and not a boat) is hardly accurate, enlightening or helpful.

When I speak of preferring the solid construction of the British cats over the Gemini for an offshore boat, I do so because I believe that their design/construction makes them more suitable. My boat is not fast, but then again, it is decidedly not a 'brick'. Here are just some of the things that I prefer about her, for offshore pursposes:

1. Strong rudder attachments with partial skegs. Yes, it adds some weight.
2. Twin inboard diesels for redundancy, increased ability to generate electricity and much safer fuel than gasoline. Again, I recognize that it adds weight.
3. Construction that permits the boat to be stored on the hard without the need for jackstands under the bridgedeck. Most cats (including the Gemini) require mulitple jackstands or the structure can flex to the point that interior doors, etc., tend to jamb. My boat is 16 years old and there is not a single stress crack in the hulls, the bridgedeck, the deck or the coachouse. In heavy seas (or for when beaching her for maintenance), this adds considerable confidence. Once again, I accept that it also adds weight.
4. Watertight collision bulkheads both fore and aft. Yes, this adds weight, but it makes her truly unsinkable.
5. All fixed portlights are made from tempered glass and sized to meet Llloyd's offshore standards. Yes, they add some weight, but they are strong and will never require replacement. The forward visibility in the Gemini, on the other hand, is seriously compromised by having to look through not only one, but two sets of plexiglass windows that haze and deteriorate quickly in the tropical sun.
6. My stantions are 30 inches high and very solidly mounted (unlike the Gemini, which are 24 inches and which typically develop stress cracks around their bases). Heavier, but safer.
7. I have a full, stainless steel bow pulpit. Again, heavier, but much safer if you are required to go forward in a blow to repair the furler, or re-set the anchor.
8. My rig has much more substantial standing rigging than the Gemini; it also does not have the much criticized, undersized winches that were fitted as standard equipment on the Gemini. Again, I agree that this adds weight.
9. I have a fixed staysail stay with furler. This enables immediate deployment of proper storm sails without going forward, although again, it does add weight.
10. Since the boat was designed for a heavier displacement, it is effected less by carrying addition stores/batteries/refrigeration/fuel/water than the Gemini. Simply put, it enables one to cruise in comfort.
11. Increased displacement increases capsize resistance.

I see all of these as postives on an offshore cruising boat. Furthermore, the boat is decidely not a brick in the water and will match, or beat the Gemini on any point of sail except to windward. Yes, my boat (as with any cruising boat) is a compromise. But in my opinion, the advantages brought about by the more solid/safe construction/design, outweigh the disadvantages of increased displacement for an offshore cruising boat. For a nearshore/Bahamas cruiser? Perhaps not.

So I will end off where I started off in answering the original question - which boat is better will depend upon the intended use.

Brad
__________________

__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 07:41   #18
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
And the original poster on this thread could buy it for under $ 100K?
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 11:27   #19
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
No, even if it were for sale, he couldn't by mine for under $100K - although there are certainly some older Solaris cats that can be had in that price range (and that have most, if not all of the same attributes). Indeed, many of the older British Cats by Prout and Catalac that are available for under 100K have similar construction, rigs (Prout), inboard diesel(s), portlights, stanchions, bow pulpits, etc. Most also have a terrific 'pedigree' in terms of offshore passages.

Once again, different horses for different courses. As I said, I actually think the Gemini is a terrific boat that provides huge bang for the buck. If I were not interested in Ocean crossings, or spending a substantial period of time living aboard (admitting that, at this age, I have become more accustomed to creature comforts); certainly, if I were restricted to doing much of my sailing in shallow water (the Bahamas. the Chesepeake, etc.), I would think that the Gemini would be a perfect choice.

I wrote originally (and still maintain) that the choice of cat for under $100,000. would depend upon his intended use. It seems pretty obvious to me (and is in no way intended as an attack on the Gemini) that all boats are compromises, to some degree.

Apart from the safety issues for offshore sailing that I have already referred to, I also prefer (for living aboard) the layout in the various Solaris cats between 36 and 44 feet, in comparison to the Gemini. All, including ones in his price range, will have aft staterooms (more comfortable when underway than forward staterooms) that are larger and brighter. Furthermore, all will have a dedicated chart table/nav station in the main saloon (where there is easier access to/communication with the helmsman). Heck, the main saloon will be larger overall and have standing headroom throughout.

In any event, I think that the original poster had a pretty good idea of the range of boats that will be available to him in his price range. If his interests are geared more towards shoal draft, with space and amenities less important than upwind performance; if he has an expectation of doing nothing more ambitious than coastal/Bahamas/Caribbean crusing, then the Gemini may be the perfect choice.
Otherwise, for the reasons indicated, he may be well advised to look seriously at some of the other cats that he has mentioned.

Cheers!

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 11:38   #20
Registered User
 
SearenitySail's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Great South Bay, Long Island, NY, USA
Boat: TPI Lagoon 35ccc Catamaran designed by Morrelli & Melvin
Posts: 219
I think Brad has laid out some excellent points for someone to consider; someone who obviously has a set budget amount, has already done some research, and is trying to get some useful information and input to help in their decision.

My impression is that was the intent of the original post.

Marshall
__________________
"People sail for fun and no one has yet convinced me that it's more fun to go slow than it is to go fast." -Dick Newick
SearenitySail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 12:42   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
1970s vintage prouts were actually pretty decent sailors (prior to the shelf being installed on the 1980's vintage boats). Of course you can do "coastal cruising" by island hopping all the way down the Caribbean. And yes, the Gemini is a purposefully built coastal cruiser. It was never intended as an ocean crosser. I have personally seen the one sitting in Hawaii, which is quite an ocean passage. If I had time and not money, I would look at some of the kit boats you can get that are premade. You can probably get twice the boat for half the price.
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 12:48   #22
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
Fusion 40 Catamarans

fusion kit catamarans for 118k would give you a boat that would probably sell for 300k.
You're right but what's 3000 hours of your life worth?
__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 16:38   #23
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
I have to agree with Brad. Having owned 3 British built cats and a Gemini there is no comparison for bluewater cruising. The British built boats are extremely solid and safe feeling. One thing not mentioned is the ability to resist capsize. The Gemini to me has a more tender feel to her. I've never felt I was close to flying a hull on the British built boats but on the Gemini I think I have gotten pretty close. That having been said the Gemini is easy to handle, has a very user friendly layout and is a blast to sail with no British built cat of the same size able to keep up with her. And lets not forget the shallow draft. AJ
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 17:31   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
There doesn't seem to be much difference between these points of view. If some psychiatrist could factor out pride of ownership and defense of the underdog, you two might even flip sides!

Every boat is a compromise, and every boaty has an opinion. There is no bull's eye and there are no omniscient sages, myself being only marginally included.

What we do agree on is that the OP has a wide selection of under 100K cats. If he can decide what his parameters are, he will still have a choice of boats. That's not bad.

So how can we help narrow the field? We could ask him to decide how much maintenance he is willing to undertake, or how tolerant he might be of being passed by another sailor, or whether he prefers a sports car or a family van for a two week trip.

What other questions can we ask?
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 19:38   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Certainly I don't want to sound rude but I dont get it.

You gotta budget but you have to have a cat? It can't be anything else? Do you want to go sailing or what?

Here: 1984 Cantieri Navali Ambrosi Scia 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com under a $100k. Take your family anywhere in the world. It's big, strong, comfy and will make an easy 170 miles a day. It must just be me, I don't get the "gotta have a cat" draw. Here is a million dollar boat if new for $100k and you gotta have a cat?

Good luck with your search, wish you the best, walking away shaking my head.
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 19:50   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
That boat actually looks too good to be true for $99k.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 19:50   #27
Registered User
 
sww914's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Punta De Mita
Boat: Vagabond 39 Hull # 1
Posts: 1,842
I posted this in the multihull section. If I wanted a fight I would have posted in the monohull section. That boat draws a lot of water. 7.5 feet. That puts a lot of the Caribbean out of reach, literally. I have decided to buy a multihull for many reasons, draft is one of them. That is an extremely beautiful boat but it won't serve my needs.
Beyond that, everyone has been very helpful. I searched for an inexpensive cat vs cat vs cat thread and I found nothing. This has developed into an informative thread and I thank you all.
__________________
sww914 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 19:50   #28
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
Once you have a cat, you don't go back.
__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 20:15   #29
Registered User
 
tackdriver's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: None :(
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
Once you have a cat, you don't go back.
Nope, and you don't go to windward either.


JMB
__________________
--------------------------------------------
http://sailing.billson.com
tackdriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 20:42   #30
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
Nope, and you don't go to windward either.


JMB
Yep, and you flip over every minute or so as well. There is a cruising cat near me (a Pescott Whithaven) that will absolutely oupoint your boat.

Sheesh. When are we going to stop this mythology.
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Boat(s) for Caribbean Cruising Under 100k Homespun Monohull Sailboats 22 13-02-2010 07:32
$100K and Looking for a Good, Solid, Safe Cruiser / Liveaboard popeyenat Monohull Sailboats 26 05-02-2010 09:30
seeking advice to buy a new dingy cat Khalil Multihull Sailboats 5 04-09-2008 14:26
Advice on cat bareboat certification birgekr Multihull Sailboats 4 04-09-2008 14:15
Buying a Cat - advice needed Gludy Multihull Sailboats 36 21-07-2008 14:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.