How many cats have flipped ?

[contrail]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Good stuff from Cheechako and David M. I knew a guy who was told by a cat salesman that big sailing cats don’t flip they just slide sideways. WTF man!

I am greatly troubled by modern day sailing cat designs which have all sheets and other control lines led through a battery of jammers at a single winch near the helm. Not only that but most now have enormous water holding open pits forward of the saloon which they euphemistically call “forward cockpits” or worse, “lanais.”

Either of these features would be extremely dangerous in open ocean swells in a real blow. When looking at these boats at boat shows, I’ve jokingly remarked to brokers that if I found myself in that situation I would wear a machete on my hip to chop the main sheet at the first sign of a round up or round down. In a panic tangled lines don't run through jammers worth diddly. What color was that main sheet again?

If you have a choice hope for a round down which will tear the boom off the mast and kill the mainsail thus, hopefully, letting the boat right itself. Happened like that to a friend of mine off the coast of Ecuador at night.

The truth is if found myself on one of these boats I wouldn’t go outside of helicopter range in warm water only and I would always wear my offshore vest and tracker.

Jim, I don't know your cat experience, but if or when you sail a cat, particularly in rough conditions, I would suggest you keep any active line (particularly the mainsheet) on a winch, with the clutch released. They will pay out in an instant. And, if you are still uncomfortable, you can take the tail, where the stripper takes the line out of the self tailing mechanism, and reverse the direction so that you can very quickly get it out of the self tailer, even from a distance.


Most boats, these days, have far fewer winches than they used to, and make more use of clutches, jammers, whatever, than the predecessors. It just takes a little getting used to. I think very few have only ONE winch, and I, personally, would not like that, in the least. But you could still determine which is the line that needs releasing most quickly.

[conchaway]

Having been thoroughly castigated for disparaging catamarans in the past, I would never have a negative thing to say about them. However, I heard someone say that when they go over, they have purchased the crop growing rural area.

[smj]

Originally Posted by gonesail

please share your source for that

Please learn how to read

[smj]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

Where can we find that stat?

Check post #9

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by conchaway

Having been thoroughly castigated for disparaging catamarans in the past, I would never have a negative thing to say about them. However, I heard someone say that when they go over, they have purchased the crop growing rural area.

You mean like this?


I've heard mono sailors often say "Glug glug glug."

However I've also been told this can only be positive.

For the gene pool.

[Paul Howard]

Lots of fun reading non-cat sailors pontificating about boats they know nothing about.
I owned an early Manta catamaran that I sailed about 60,000 miles including crossing the Arctic Circle north of Iceland (highest Latitude in the North Atlantic: 66degrees 40min) and then continuing south and rounding Cape Horn (Max southern latitude: 56degrees 08min), including many days of gales along the way.
We also sailed to Alaska, max latitude about 58degrees at Glacier Bay.

We (my wife an I) had also circumnavigated the world in a steel monohull (about 42,000 ocean miles). We experienced much more heavy weather and large seas in the catamaran than in the monohull and were much more comfortable in the Catamaran. My wife also suffered much less seasickness on the cat (doesn't roll in the trade winds).
The cat is much more stable when hove-to in a gale than the monohull. The cat will sideslip in big seas and I never feared a capsize.
We were also at anchor along the New Jersey shore about 50 miles from the eye of Hurricane Sandy and suffered no damage or distress while the people ashore suffered greatly with lack of electricity, no heat in their residences and great damage to their property. We were warm and dry with our heaters on and solar panels working and plenty of food in the pantry. The cat stayed stable and upright.
We sold that boat in 2016 and now own a 38ft Walter Greene design catamaran that we have sailed to Cuba and Bahamas, about half the displacement of the Manta. It is in the performance cruising territory and my wife says it is more 'bouncy' than the heavier boat, but still does not roll, stands upright and looks after us.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

Lots of fun reading non-cat sailors pontificating about boats they know nothing about.
I owned an early Manta catamaran that I sailed about 60,000 miles including crossing the Arctic Circle north of Iceland (highest Latitude in the North Atlantic: 66degrees 40min) and then continuing south and rounding Cape Horn (Max southern latitude: 56degrees 08min), including many days of gales along the way.
We also sailed to Alaska, max latitude about 58degrees at Glacier Bay.

We (my wife an I) had also circumnavigated the world in a steel monohull (about 42,000 ocean miles). We experienced much more heavy weather and large seas in the catamaran than in the monohull and were much more comfortable in the Catamaran. My wife also suffered much less seasickness on the cat (doesn't roll in the trade winds).
The cat is much more stable when hove-to in a gale than the monohull. The cat will sideslip in big seas and I never feared a capsize.
We were also at anchor along the New Jersey shore about 50 miles from the eye of Hurricane Sandy and suffered no damage or distress while the people ashore suffered greatly with lack of electricity, no heat in their residences and great damage to their property. We were warm and dry with our heaters on and solar panels working and plenty of food in the pantry. The cat stayed stable and upright.
We sold that boat in 2016 and now own a 38ft Walter Greene design catamaran that we have sailed to Cuba and Bahamas, about half the displacement of the Manta. It is in the performance cruising territory and my wife says it is more 'bouncy' than the heavier boat, but still does not roll, stands upright and looks after us.

Would that be the Walter Greene that was for sale in LaBelle Fl?

[Sos]

Originally Posted by contrail

And, if you are still uncomfortable, you can take the tail, where the stripper takes the line out of the self tailing mechanism, and reverse the direction so that you can very quickly get it out of the self tailer, even from a distance.

This is what we do all the time - also not being heeled over at a stupid angle means we can get to it quickly and easily.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

Lots of fun reading non-cat sailors pontificating about boats they know nothing about.
I owned an early Manta catamaran that I sailed about 60,000 miles including crossing the Arctic Circle north of Iceland (highest Latitude in the North Atlantic: 66degrees 40min) and then continuing south and rounding Cape Horn (Max southern latitude: 56degrees 08min), including many days of gales along the way.
We also sailed to Alaska, max latitude about 58degrees at Glacier Bay.

We (my wife an I) had also circumnavigated the world in a steel monohull (about 42,000 ocean miles). We experienced much more heavy weather and large seas in the catamaran than in the monohull and were much more comfortable in the Catamaran. My wife also suffered much less seasickness on the cat (doesn't roll in the trade winds).
The cat is much more stable when hove-to in a gale than the monohull. The cat will sideslip in big seas and I never feared a capsize.
We were also at anchor along the New Jersey shore about 50 miles from the eye of Hurricane Sandy and suffered no damage or distress while the people ashore suffered greatly with lack of electricity, no heat in their residences and great damage to their property. We were warm and dry with our heaters on and solar panels working and plenty of food in the pantry. The cat stayed stable and upright.
We sold that boat in 2016 and now own a 38ft Walter Greene design catamaran that we have sailed to Cuba and Bahamas, about half the displacement of the Manta. It is in the performance cruising territory and my wife says it is more 'bouncy' than the heavier boat, but still does not roll, stands upright and looks after us.

Great post, thanks

[jmh2002]

This negative suggestion about rope clutches and winches is a red herring.

A poorly coiled/stowed line will snarl, snag, and jam regardless of whether it is at a winch, at a clutch, at a cleat, at a mast base block, or at the mast entry point.

Coming from a racing yacht background originally, and with the advent of high tech lines during that period, we learnt to be meticulous about the correct coiling of lines on deck (under hand figure eight was the method we generally used), and if necessary the pre-emptive flaking out of a line (eg: spinnaker halyard) when pushing the limit, so that it's ready to run.

Many cruising sailors don't seem well versed in these skills and the lines and cockpit is often a mess, or if it's tidy it's because everything has just been stuffed into rope bags.

Whether on a cat or a mono this is simply poor seamanship and will bite you in the backside at some point...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Don't cold fronts usually move around 20knts? Very few cruising catamarans will get anything like that in sustained speeds, to 'get away' from the weather unless they have days of warning.
. ..

You don't need to be able to outrun a weather system, to avoid it. The faster you can go, the better your chances and the less warning you need, which is important because the more advanced the warning is, the less reliable it is.


A fast cat or any kind of fast boat has a big advantage in this regard. The high downwind speed capability of performance cats is also a really big advantage when running off or even heading off to deal with a big gust.



I was seriously thinking about buying an Atlantic 57 before I got so interested in the Arctic. The sailing abilities of a boat like that open up whole new horizons for passagemaking.



I'm not really a cat guy, but I hate heavy, tubby slow moving boats of any kind. I don't know why people think they are safe. Sailing ability -- the ability to move, and make miles upwind, and put miles between you and somewhere you don't want to be -- is a crucial element of safety which I would not want to give up, in fact it's the essence of active safety. This is a huge plus of performance cats. The risk of flipping them, though, is a big minus. The Atlantic 57 is particularly notorious for this, and I'm guessing that the rig is simply too big for the basic stability characteristics of the boat.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...I hate heavy, tubby slow moving boats of any kind. I don't know why people think they are safe. Sailing ability -- the ability to move, and make miles upwind, and put miles between you and somewhere you don't want to be -- is a crucial element of safety which I would not want to give up, in fact it's the essence of active safety.

^^^ This

I just read another thread here, a (nicely written) review of a 41ft condomaran, and the heavy, tubby thing only made "6 knots in a 15 knot beam reach" in the bahamas - and one imagines that's the best point of sail of course.

^^^ Not this

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

.. .I just read another thread here, a (nicely written) review of a 41ft condomaran, and the heavy, tubby thing only made "6 knots in a 15 knot beam reach" in the bahamas - and one imagines that's the best point of sail of course.. .

I can't imagine how tubby a boat would have to be, to make only 6 knots in 15 knots of wind on any kind of reach. I doubt that this boat was sailed properly.


I don't think I've ever been on a boat which couldn't make hull speed in those conditions. Over 9 knots on my present boat even before the carbon sails I have now.

[jmh2002]

Possibly not being sailed to it's potential of course (charter boat), but...

Links if you are interested:
2019 Bali 4.1 Charter Experience - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
https://www.bali-catamarans.com/en/c...ns/bali-4-1-2/

[B23iL23]

Spot on. We used to un-jam the kicker/vang and take it to a winch so we could dump and de-power in a hurry. No reason why the same can't be done on a cat when the conditions warrant it.


Not a cat expert but I doubt many heavily loaded cruising cats have flipped. Least I haven't heard of many.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

This negative suggestion about rope clutches and winches is a red herring.

A poorly coiled/stowed line will snarl, snag, and jam regardless of whether it is at a winch, at a clutch, at a cleat, at a mast base block, or at the mast entry point.

Coming from a racing yacht background originally, and with the advent of high tech lines during that period, we learnt to be meticulous about the correct coiling of lines on deck (under hand figure eight was the method we generally used), and if necessary the pre-emptive flaking out of a line (eg: spinnaker halyard) when pushing the limit, so that it's ready to run.

Many cruising sailors don't seem well versed in these skills and the lines and cockpit is often a mess, or if it's tidy it's because everything has just been stuffed into rope bags.

Whether on a cat or a mono this is simply poor seamanship and will bite you in the backside at some point...