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Old 24-12-2015, 07:17   #136
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Helm positions

I should point out that while the Manta is technically a LeRouge design in the esthetic sense, the scantlings, layup schedule, choice of core material, choice of type of glass used, choice of resin type, choice of layup methodology, choice of build technique and QA/QC, etc was all "Manta", which was mostly pbr or those he directly hired or contracted.

In other words, the "Lerouge" boat did not use stitched directional fabrics on foam core with vinyl ester and isothalic resins and vacuum bagged layup.

In addition, the main beam, structural bulkheads, and entire interior layout and design is dramatically different than Lerouge's original. This also includes tankage, rigging, sail choices and their controls, storage, refrigeration box and design, and a myriad of other things that define a boat design.

And all the above is also different than the 3 Tec Composite Canadian boats made (I have been on one of those).

So I don't really understand where you are drawing your very fine distinction regarding who designed and built the boat.

I think everyone agrees that it LOOKS like a Lerouge design on the outside, but it certainly is not built like one, nor rigged like one, nor looks like one on the inside.

It is also not built like a Tec Composite boat, nor rigged nor looks like one on the inside.

Mark
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Old 24-12-2015, 07:26   #137
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I should point out that while the Manta is technically a LeRouge design in the esthetic sense, the scantlings, layup schedule, choice of core material, choice of type of glass used, choice of resin type, choice of layup methodology, choice of build technique and QA/QC, etc was all "Manta", which was mostly pbr or those he directly hired or contracted.

In other words, the "Lerouge" boat did not use stitched directional fabrics on foam core with vinyl ester and isothalic resins and vacuum bagged layup.

In addition, the main beam, structural bulkheads, and entire interior layout and design is dramatically different than Lerouge's original. This also includes tankage, rigging, sail choices and their controls, storage, refrigeration box and design, and a myriad of other things that define a boat design.

And all the above is also different than the 3 Tec Composite Canadian boats made (I have been on one of those).

So I don't really understand where you are drawing your very fine distinction regarding who designed and built the boat.

I think everyone agrees that it LOOKS like a Lerouge design on the outside, but it certainly is not built like one, nor rigged like one, nor looks like one on the inside.

It is also not built like a Tec Composite boat, nor rigged nor looks like one on the inside.

Mark
Thanks Mark for pointing out those distinctions, I might also add I still gladly help Manta owners past, present, and future, with technical or other questions on almost a weekly basis.
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Old 24-12-2015, 07:30   #138
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I should point out that while the Manta is technically a LeRouge design in the esthetic sense, the scantlings, layup schedule, choice of core material, choice of type of glass used, choice of resin type, choice of layup methodology, choice of build technique and QA/QC, etc was all "Manta", which was mostly pbr or those he directly hired or contracted.

In other words, the "Lerouge" boat did not use stitched directional fabrics on foam core with vinyl ester and isothalic resins and vacuum bagged layup.

In addition, the main beam, structural bulkheads, and entire interior layout and design is dramatically different than Lerouge's original. This also includes tankage, rigging, sail choices and their controls, storage, refrigeration box and design, and a myriad of other things that define a boat design.

And all the above is also different than the 3 Tec Composite Canadian boats made (I have been on one of those).

So I don't really understand where you are drawing your very fine distinction regarding who designed and built the boat.

I think everyone agrees that it LOOKS like a Lerouge design on the outside, but it certainly is not built like one, nor rigged like one, nor looks like one on the inside.

It is also not built like a Tec Composite boat, nor rigged nor looks like one on the inside.

Mark

It was a misunderstanding on my part. When pbr stated that he developed Manta I took that as meaning from the ground up, in other words he developed the hulls. There's no doubt he developed the Manta into what it is today, a very popular cruiser.
You're right, there is a difference between the Mantas built by Tekatch and the more modern Manta. One of the main differences is the Tekatch Mantas were balsa core, or at least the one I saw was. If I remember correctly the layouts were pretty close to the same.


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Old 24-12-2015, 07:50   #139
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Re: Helm positions

Even the hulls are not the same. They are longer at both ends, with the bow and sterns considerably different in design, and the rudder design and placement is completely different. Both of these changes changed the rocker, prismatic, and center of effort, and required a NA to achieve. I think the keels are original design, though.

Similarly, the deck shares little but looks with a Lerouge or Tek comp. The coach roof is higher, the windows are different, the nonskid is different, the storage lockers are different, many of the "original" control pads and cutouts were removed or changed, etc.

So the distinction boils down to only the method by which a rough visual similarity was obtained and the molds built?

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Old 24-12-2015, 08:03   #140
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Re: Helm positions

The original molds were pulled directly of a Lerouge boat I believe. No doubt the design has changed since then. There's also no doubt that the Manta looks like a Lerouge design which IMHO is good as Lerouge designs some of the prettiest catamarans out there. Of course this is my opinion only.


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Old 24-12-2015, 08:29   #141
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Re: Helm positions

The original molds were made by hacking up and scaling a different Lerouge design altogether. Lerouge never made a 38' design of this type that could have been copied or splashed.

So the boat is about as far away from a Lerouge design as one can get and still retain a visual similarity. Probably why Lerouge doesn't take any credit for it, even when offered.

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Old 24-12-2015, 08:31   #142
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Re: Helm positions

A similar example is the Kurt Hughes designed Solaris Sunstar.

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Old 24-12-2015, 08:51   #143
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Helm positions

So much passion on this topic! It's not all or nothing. You are steering a sailboat after all. I forget who made this cat but it is/was a higher performance cruising cat with outboard helm seats and tillers, and also a bulkhead wheel that could be engaged for use. That sounds perfect to me- steer outboard when performance sailing so you can see sails well (like how I like to sit on my mono when sailing to weather by telltales) but can motor/cruise from bulkhead.


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Old 24-12-2015, 09:01   #144
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The original molds were made by hacking up and scaling a different Lerouge design altogether. Lerouge never made a 38' design of this type that could have been copied or splashed.

So the boat is about as far away from a Lerouge design as one can get and still retain a visual similarity. Probably why Lerouge doesn't take any credit for it, even when offered.

Mark

The Manta was splashed of a Jeffcat 42. Maybe Manta cut 4' of the stern then eventually added it back on?


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Old 24-12-2015, 09:04   #145
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Re: Helm positions

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A similar example is the Kurt Hughes designed Solaris Sunstar.

Mark

The Solaris Sunstar came directly from the molds of the Lerouge designed Jeffcat 32. Solaris produced both a 32' Sunstar and also a Sunstar 36 which was the 32'er with an added 4' at the stern. Lerouge wouldn't take credit for the Sunstar as it was built way above his weight specs.


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Old 24-12-2015, 09:40   #146
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Re: Helm positions

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The Manta was splashed of a Jeffcat 42. Maybe Manta cut 4' of the stern then eventually added it back on?


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Nope they made a plug and a mold based on the drawings of a Jeff Cat, not a splash.
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Old 24-12-2015, 09:52   #147
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
The Solaris Sunstar came directly from the molds of the Lerouge designed Jeffcat 32. Solaris produced both a 32' Sunstar and also a Sunstar 36 which was the 32'er with an added 4' at the stern. Lerouge wouldn't take credit for the Sunstar as it was built way above his weight specs.


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Why have I regularly seen this design attributed to Kurt Hughs?

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Old 24-12-2015, 09:54   #148
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Re: Helm positions

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Why have I regularly seen this design attributed to Kurt Hughs?

Mark
Sunstar was a Jeff cat/Lerouge
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Old 24-12-2015, 10:51   #149
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Re: Helm positions

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YOU DONT HAVE TO STAND WATCH AT THE HELM IF YOU DONT WANT TO!

Autopilot lets you sit under cover and still keep a good lookout on most designs. Its just a mindset from those that associate the helm with all watchkeeping.
I'm looking at purchasing a Privilege 51 from my friend and sailing mentor, and the helm is kind of exposed on the rear starboard. Not as exposed as some of the pics where it looks like you could fall off the transom, but exposed nonetheless. He has 3 arguments for why he likes it:

1. I'll probably spend 99% of the time at anchor or the marina. The helm stays out of the way so much more room in the living area.
2. I'll try to only sail in good weather anyways. Remember, we are cruising. Don't want to scare the wife off. Squalls will come up, but ...
3. With auto-pilot, you don't stay at the helm anyways. Walking about the boat, or staying in otherwise protected areas is not a big deal.

Anyways, I love the idea of a protected helm. I've watched enough of the Antares videos about it. But all boats are compromises, and if we end up with his boat, we will just deal with it.

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Old 24-12-2015, 15:27   #150
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Re: Helm positions

Funny thing is, much as people criticize "other" helm positions, too exposed, too high, too blind etc, the people who have them seem to like them.
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