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Old 20-04-2006, 06:04   #46
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Moby:

I forgot the PDQ so it is good that you mention it. Of all the Cats I have been on, the PDQ is at the top of my list for layout, interior quality, features, etc. There is only one way it comes...fully loaded. It also comes with a price to match so if you have the budget, its worth taking a close look at.

I cannot add anything ragarding quality of the hull and have heard that it is a slow boat. To counter the reputation of being slow, PDQ offered up a challenge to race any and all other Cats at the boat show">Miami boat show. They advertised this in Cruising World. From what I heard, nobody showed up. The Manta president indicated that he wanted to join in but the race was after the show closed and they needed to get the boat back...they were also using a customer's boat at the show and their insurance company prohibited racing.

PDQ does some interesting things. They deliver the boat to you at their factory near Toronto (they are a Canadian company). At delivery they have what's called the PDQ academy where they spend a few days with you on the boat helping you get the feel and work the systems. They also run a separate academy for your wife or partner to give them the training without the males species involved. For North American buyers, I understand that they have a van that travels up and down the coasts to do warranty work as needed.

PDQ is a small company but the folks there seem top notch and concerned about producing the absolute best cruising Cat.

I can only hope that one shows up on the used market at a more attractive price.
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Old 20-04-2006, 10:51   #47
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Gosstyla - By offshore I mean traveling from the mainland US to the south pacific, then to OZ and NZ. So yes I will need considerable payload capacity as I plan on being completly self sufficient- I don't want to have to rely on any marina or port for anything. (within reason of course). This means watermaker, compressor for filling tanks, solar pannels, wind generator, ext ext.

You have a great point about making a list and writing down how much each item weighs. I will make it a point to do that.

Laser - I read your old thread about headroom in different cats and it was very informative.

Randy - That was a great look at what's needed in a good cruising cat. And as someone that's new too cats its great to see.


Thanks to everyone, I've learned more about cats from this thread than through other reserach I've done.
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Old 20-04-2006, 11:06   #48
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The Voyage and Leopard boats have skegs along with the BBs and they all have crash bulkheads forward and aft. I am less concerned about a modern well constructed hull with core below the waterline if it’s done right. That said, all of these are solid laminate below the waterline.

On the Lagoon construction item, I read that too. I have discovered that the small boats have no core in the hulls, above or below the waterline, making them easier and less costly to build. The decks are of course cored and all of the Lagoons have an outer vinylester layer as I understand it. I have been told that a 380 or 410 (or the new 420) is made in 5 weeks time. A 470 or 500 takes about 5 months. The smaller boats are built at a factory near Nantes and the larger boats are built in Bordeaux. The 440 and up are fly bridge these days so that leaves me with the 380s2 and 420 (you can probably still get a 410) or a used 470. The 380 is kinda small, the 420 is kinda new but the 470 seems like a great boat for long range cruising.

The PDQ is a great boat but it is pricey. I think you could get a BB435 equally well equipped for $50,000 less. They also only build PDQs with the galley down, which just doesn’t work for me. The largest PDQ on YachtWorld right now is a 36’er. Not looking like the PDQ 44 owners are too excited about parting with their boats.
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Old 20-04-2006, 11:17   #49
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Randy:

I can say with a very high level of certainty that the Leopard 43 at the Miami boat show did not have crash compartments. It was on my "evaluation sheet" and both my wife and I have "none" on that line item. Unless there was a sealed part of the bow below the waterline. I didn't look under the single bunk in the bow. The rest of the show is a blur so I have to rely on my notes and not mental images at this point.

Laser
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Old 20-04-2006, 11:27   #50
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Randy, yes you are correct on Leopard/Morrings having skegs, I forgot. I did not know about Voyage.

I am not so sure about Leopard being solid glass below water: their brochure indicates it is cored (but it is not real clear). I'll take your word.

I have come across many monohulls that had core below waterline, and that were supposed to be 'done right' - even HRassys - with water penetration. I am sure its OK for a few years if you are buying new. But the odd chip in gell coat, slight ingress of water over the years (from outside or inside....) . When Malo and their like start doing core below (again) I'll relax a bit.

Thanks for info on Lagoons. Solid above the water means more condensation in temperate climes (where I am)
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Old 20-04-2006, 11:59   #51
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The Leopards advertise the crash bulkhead in their brochure (that's what I'm going off of) and it is (as with several popular cats) an area under the bunk beginning above the waterline.

Jeff H would be a great guy to hear from on the core issue. My understanding is that with coring blocks (where the core material is affixed to a backing cloth and configured with a matrix of channels between the individual blocks) and vacuum bagging with vinylester resin you have little issue with creeping osmosis. You do get improved insulation and better impact resistance. Solid laminate tends to crack under heavy impact where the core provides enough damping often to avoid penetration. This kind of core is not really structural like the balsa used in decks. This is all book knowledge though and I am certainly not a navel architect.
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Old 20-04-2006, 12:17   #52
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Strangely, the Leopard 40 brochure talks about crash bulkheads (less than half hight, below the bunks) but the 43 brochure doesn't mention them.

On the core issue: it is not osmosis as such. it is water penetration (and then de-lamination). The technique you described is what Lagoon claim they use - but only on the BIG boats.
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Old 20-04-2006, 17:59   #53
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Will

Based on your objectives the Lagoon 47ft, maybe the FP 46ft, are the smallest "off the rack" cats I know that I think could possibly meet your payload requirements. It will be interesting to see you what you find.
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Old 22-04-2006, 10:44   #54
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Hi Everyone,

I have been reading through this thread with much interest as we went through the same process last year so I will let you have our findings and decisions.

We looked at the French Cats, Lagoon and FP, Broadblue 385 and 42 (now435) and Leopard. We are also heading off Blue Water cruising so had much the same considerations.

Both the French Cats seemed too lightly built for long term liveaboard use, eg Lagoon forward deck hatch lids deflect noticeably when walked on - even my wife noticed this and she less than 10st. Lots of interior mouldings and lots of exposed white inside. Generally good use of the available space in all models. Also the Lagoons do not appear to have enough sail area and have a reputation for being slowish boats. FP's are better in this area.

We were not impressed with the Leopards - build quality did not seem to be top notch and some quirky features that would become a right pain for full time life. Also small galley areas and galley stowage / fridges not big enough.

Broadblue are impressive boats and seem to be very solidly built. The 385 is built in Poland and the 435 in the UK. I have heard that the quality from Poland is not quite as good as the UK but not too significant. The 385 has plenty of saloon / galley space but cabin space is not very generous. There is only one cockpit locker on the 385 and this does not provide enough space for all the things you need to keep handy. Walk through heads to rear stbd cabin did not impress me or Sue. Sail area seemed to be on the small side but performance seems OK in spite of this.

BB42 provides lots more space in all areas, particularly aft cabins and cockpit. Quality of interior woodwork is excellent with hardly any exposed mouldings visible. Cockpit stowage is excellent with one locker in cockpit and three on aft deck, also foredeck lockers are huge. Plenty of sail area especially with optional gennaker and decent turn of speed though could not be described as "fast" because they are solid relatively heavy boats. Good load carrying ability - best of all the boats we looked at I think.

So what did we buy ?

We put a deposit on a new BB385 before the first one was built because we felt it was the best compromise in our price range. When we finally got to see her and have a test sail we were pretty impressed overall, one major downside was cockpit locker space - or lack of. Also headroom over bunks was very poor although this has been improved now.

At the same time as we saw the 385 we looked at a 2 yr old BB42 and after much consideration we decided to go with the 42. We decided we were getting a lot more space, load carrying ability, comfort and performance. The 2yr old 42 probably cost about the same as a fully specified new 385 but we get a lot more boat for the money.

We have had the 42 for about 8 months now and are very impressed in general. Plenty of storage / locker space inside and out. Good sailing performance and easy to handle sail plan, the gennaker is brilliant. Not had her out in any really rough stuff yet but she is very comfortable in the conditions we have experienced and gives the impression of being able to cope with anything. She is a big boat especially in a marina, the high bows make her look even bigger and are a problem when berthing in a crosswind - the bows get blown off quite easily even when using the engines to try and keep her straight. We are not too worried by this because we intend to spend most of our time anchored - std anchor and chain are too light so we have upped the spec considerably in this area.

One other thing to consider is the cabin layout. We would probably have favoured the owners layout if we had a choice but we have got the four cabin / two heads layout. Having lived with this for some time now I think it is the better option - the owners layout uses all one hull for the owners suite and I think this wastes a huge amount of space, also you only sleep and shower in this area especially when in the tropics etc. I am converting the forward cabin on our side into a workshop since I believe this is essential for long distance cruising, so we will end up with three cabins and a workshop. If we had bought an owners version we would still have needed a workshop area so we would have ended up with only two cabins!!!. Personally I am happy that we will make the best use of the space with the layout we have.

Hope this helps anybody else making the same decisions.

Chris
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Old 23-04-2006, 02:55   #55
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Re-looking at the Leopard/Moorings brochure, I see even the '40' only has collision bulkeads that 'limit the intrusion of water' not true reserve boyancy compartments.
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Old 23-04-2006, 03:07   #56
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Chris:
What sort of anchor bridle, or other anchoring arrangement have you developed to deal with sailing at anchor, and how has it worked to date?

”... the high bows make her look even bigger and are a problem when berthing in a crosswind - the bows get blown off quite easily ...”
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Old 23-04-2006, 07:24   #57
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Chris:

Thank you for that post. You have prompted me to have a second look at the owner's vs 4 cabin layout. Its nice to hear the perspective from someone living the life and especially one that started off in one direction and chose another in the end.

I seem to remeber most 4 cabin boats having 4 heads to go along with them. The last thing I want is to maintain 4 heads .
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Old 23-04-2006, 07:26   #58
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Gord,

Not anchored her very much at all yet so I can't really give you much feeback. Weather in N Wales has only just improved enough to start sailing again so we have been stuck in the marina for the winter!!!

As for a bridle, I have made some plates to bolt onto the fixings that secure the front cross beam to the inner faces of the hulls. The cross beam mount fixes through the hull with 8 M12 bolts so I am putting a 10mm plate on the inside and then fixing another plate to three of the bolts on the outside, this plate then has additional holes that will take M16 D shackles for the bridle legs.

Another option is the M20 bolt that joins the ends of the crossbeam to the hull fitting, this runs fore and aft and it would be easy to fit a ring nut to the end of this bolt to provide an attachment point.

My method is obviously stronger especially with the extra backing plate inside the hulls but is also alot more work.

Chris
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Old 23-04-2006, 07:33   #59
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Hi Laser,

The BB435 has four cabins and only two heads so not as bad as you think!!! The heads are accessible directly from the aft cabins but not from the front cabins. There is also access from the passageway, ie there are two doors into each heads, one from the aft cabin and one from the passage.

The heads are not very generous in terms of room but they are adequate for me at 6ft and 15st. The heads do have a seperate shower area that has plenty of headroom. Originally there was no door / curtain between the shower and the rest of the heads which is a pain because water splashes everywhere. We have fitted standard bathroom shower curtains that work fine. I think BB now fit a folding door but definitely something to check.

Chris
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Old 23-04-2006, 07:45   #60
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Chris:

Congratulations on a great find. I can only hope that a 2 yr old 42/435 shows up on the resale market offering a similar opportunity. Resales seem to be very rare.

The Lagoon 420 is on my short list but I would prefer it to only come with 2 heads instead of 3 in the owner's version. It comes with 4 heads in the 4 cabin version. I asked the Lagoon folks about leaving out the third head or two of the heads and understandably they were not interested in any customization.

Enjoy!
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