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Old 19-08-2008, 04:15   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
I was amazed at two things about that blog.

The first is that the new boat has had to go back to the yard and is delayed so much that they have had to extend their 3 month visa for another 3 months.

The second is that the speeds achieved in the test sails in light winds are worse than I had with the much heavier St Francis.

I was once in a position were my delivered new boat was so bad that it spent 6 months on the builders pontoon after delivery before it could escape ..... it later fell to bits and I had a refund after a big battle ........ so I can understand the positive attitude that Butterfly's owners are putting onto the situation ....it's almost like Stockholm syndrome - I did just that positive spin for 6 months ...... I frankly have a lot of empathy for them.

Gideon whilst you invite people for a test sail you should really point out your stated policy, which is not to sail in anything more than an f5.

I am truly baffled by the mystery of a cat that on paper should fly but needed engines to tack in over 20 knots of wind, which was the case in my test sail ...... it does not make sense.
Hallo Paul ( Gludy )

The boat did not go back to the yard.
We have definitely delivered the boat to late , however we have also funded all the extra costs for the new owners and is has nothing to do with this thread.

The owners are forgetting to mention that they wanted many changes in the boat like a different front door and at least 20 other points are changed on their request and this all costs time.
Also when moving the boat from the yard to the dock she unfortunately was damaged.
You seem to have a short memory , I hope it has only to do with the fact that you where very tired during the test sail but we had counter currents of 2 knots and we where not really busy in making record time having 2 people on board with no sailing experience at all as you had told me.
There is where you lack some knowledge, it is normal not to do test sails in wind force over 5 B not only for us but for all the yachtbuilders that I know of.
What type of wind force did you have while sailing the St Francis ?

I know your powerboat was a bad boat , you have told me all about it , however that is not the case with the FastCat so this cannot be compared and we want to deliver the best possible boat which was obviously not the case with your Powerboat.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 19-08-2008, 04:19   #62
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With us it is standard policy to have the boat surveyed before it is delivered so all the involved know the boat is good , Maybe that is something you should have done before taking delivery of that Powerboat.

During the building process we have an independent surveyor come in to check the building process and that is something that often lacks with other boats being build.
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Old 19-08-2008, 04:38   #63
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
With us it is standard policy to have the boat surveyed before it is delivered so all the involved know the boat is good , Maybe that is something you should have done before taking delivery of that Powerboat.

During the building process we have an independent surveyor come in to check the building process and that is something that often lacks with other boats being build.
I like the word Independent surveyor.... Thats good!
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Old 19-08-2008, 04:55   #64
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Hello Gideon
Ok - I have re-read the blog and the boat did not go back into the yard - it was apparently having internal having re-spray jobs in the marina.

Anyway sticking to the point of getting a Fastcat ready and what you say, these are quotes from the blog.

"We gave Butterfly a wide berth this weekend. Wanted to leave the guys to get on with things without us slowing them up. There’s a lot of respraying going on - we do know that. Chiefly the varnish, which needed attention in many areas. Pity the poor guys who had to go in there on Sunday and do the job. A face mask is better than nothing, but far from ideal in such confined spaces."

Also

"We’ve always said from the word go that what we wanted was the boat right. And that if this took a little longer to achieve, than one would expect, we would be patient and not hassle anyone. Well, we’ve more than played our part - in fact our patience has become something of a legend among the folks down at the marina and other boatbuilders - but there comes a point where you realise that, ironically, your patience and forbearance are working against you. Follow that realisation with a series of unfortunate clangers, some poor workmanship, and the email mentioned above - and it becomes straws and camels’ backs time. Since that Boof! point, things have started moving briskly - hooray!- and after some rather lively exchanges (I do so like an understatement) at last we have a completion date that is based on rationalised planning, rather than wishful thinking. We know FastCats are now trying very hard to keep their end of the bargain too. But perhaps we’ll let you be the judge of that. You see, thanks to Gideon’s impressive and relentless promotion of the FastCat range, we get so many requests these days for more pics of the boat - the details, the electronics, the cabin fitments - that sort of thing, that it will be good to try and offer those who are very interested in the 455, a good range of photos without the clutter, without the lovely guys (we mean that, too) who’ve been months slaving over her - and without all the sea of tools, grub, muck and dust. Later, of course, once we’ve had a chance to dress her properly, we’ll take pics of that too. We think it might be enlightening for the other FastCatters especially to see for themselves what you get with a boat that Gideon has promised will be of “showroom standard”. Oh, and that completion date? 13th August. So expect pics soonishly after."

As regards testing a boat for speed:-
For the record I have no doubt that normally the lighter the weight the faster the boat should be .... as a general rule that us something I accept for cats.

We are beginners at sailing but not in boating - we had experienced 18 foot waves in a power boat and I explained that to you. There was no need to hold back on speed nor did I think you did. Both our observations were that you tried your best to get the best speed.

Ok I accept that I was looking at the SOG but seeing as all we did was one circle at times that current you mention should have been with us.

To answer your question - the other boats were tested in light winds of 5 to 12 knots. Both were happy to test sail in up to 35 knots of wind.

Gideon - no where is there any type of independent verification with a FastCat actually sailing fast. What results we do see show modest speeds. and yes I am baffled. You tell me 19 are sold and there are 7 a year being produced, so you have another 15 customers currently on the books awaiting their FastCats. This means a boat built on average less than every 2 months so why not take one and subject it to independent trails that you can use?
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Old 19-08-2008, 04:55   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
I like the word Independent surveyor.... Thats good!
I would advise anybody that has a boat build to have it surveyed during building and do a pre- delivery inspection and have it put in the contract that the builders allow it .

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 19-08-2008, 05:12   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
Hello Gideon
Ok - I have re-read the blog and the boat did not go back into the yard - it was apparently having internal having re-spray jobs in the marina.

Anyway sticking to the point of getting a Fastcat ready and what you say, these are quotes from the blog.

"We gave Butterfly a wide berth this weekend. Wanted to leave the guys to get on with things without us slowing them up. There’s a lot of respraying going on - we do know that. Chiefly the varnish, which needed attention in many areas. Pity the poor guys who had to go in there on Sunday and do the job. A face mask is better than nothing, but far from ideal in such confined spaces."

Also

"We’ve always said from the word go that what we wanted was the boat right. And that if this took a little longer to achieve, than one would expect, we would be patient and not hassle anyone. Well, we’ve more than played our part - in fact our patience has become something of a legend among the folks down at the marina and other boatbuilders - but there comes a point where you realise that, ironically, your patience and forbearance are working against you. Follow that realisation with a series of unfortunate clangers, some poor workmanship, and the email mentioned above - and it becomes straws and camels’ backs time. Since that Boof! point, things have started moving briskly - hooray!- and after some rather lively exchanges (I do so like an understatement) at last we have a completion date that is based on rationalised planning, rather than wishful thinking. We know FastCats are now trying very hard to keep their end of the bargain too. But perhaps we’ll let you be the judge of that. You see, thanks to Gideon’s impressive and relentless promotion of the FastCat range, we get so many requests these days for more pics of the boat - the details, the electronics, the cabin fitments - that sort of thing, that it will be good to try and offer those who are very interested in the 455, a good range of photos without the clutter, without the lovely guys (we mean that, too) who’ve been months slaving over her - and without all the sea of tools, grub, muck and dust. Later, of course, once we’ve had a chance to dress her properly, we’ll take pics of that too. We think it might be enlightening for the other FastCatters especially to see for themselves what you get with a boat that Gideon has promised will be of “showroom standard”. Oh, and that completion date? 13th August. So expect pics soonishly after."

As regards testing a boat for speed:-
For the record I have no doubt that normally the lighter the weight the faster the boat should be .... as a general rule that us something I accept for cats.

We are beginners at sailing but not in boating - we had experienced 18 foot waves in a power boat and I explained that to you. There was no need to hold back on speed nor did I think you did. Both our observations were that you tried your best to get the best speed.

Ok I accept that I was looking at the SOG but seeing as all we did was one circle at times that current you mention should have been with us.

To answer your question - the other boats were tested in light winds of 5 to 12 knots. Both were happy to test sail in up to 35 knots of wind.

Gideon - no where is there any type of independent verification with a FastCat actually sailing fast. What results we do see show modest speeds. and yes I am baffled. You tell me 19 are sold and there are 7 a year being produced, so you have another 15 customers currently on the books awaiting their FastCats. This means a boat built on average less than every 2 months so why not take one and subject it to independent trails that you can use?
The prototype was tested by Multi hulls world in 2005 and they where impressed with the speed.

http://www.multihulls-world.com/us/b...atamarans.html

Customers always come first with us but since you are asking , Hull number 5 is build as a factory demonstrator with the Green Motion system in place and that cat will be available for testing both by the press and by prospective customers and you are welcome to come and sail with us if you feel like it.
When I first wanted to sail the St Francis in the beginning of 2003 there was a force 7 and we did not sail that day but the next day we had force 4 and we sailed , I think it is smart to test sail with force 5 or less since any boat will sail well with a lot of wind but not with a bit of wind.
Greetings
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Old 19-08-2008, 05:43   #67
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I had forgotten about that test but the best speed recorded in it was 9 knots in 15 knots of wind and to me, albeit inexperienced in sailing, that seems OK but not fast and I did faster in a St Francis weighing twice as much in less wind!

So where am I going wrong in my understanding .... what speed should you expect from a Fastcat in 15 knots of wind on a broad reach?

All the test does for me is confirm the problem of no independent test showing high speeds.

Thanks for the invite to test sail the next one but its of little interest to me to make a special journey to do that.

However so everyone knows ... when will hull number 5 be ready?
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Old 19-08-2008, 06:00   #68
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Yes the speed was 9 knots in 15 knots of wind and the boat was the prototype with a loaded weight of 12 tons with full water and diesel tanks since we where on the way to Amsterdam from La Rochelle
The last boat launched had a launching weight of 5800 kilo or a ready to sail weight of around 7000 kilo or over 45 % less.
That amounts to a 30 % faster boat or in the same conditions or 12 knots in 15 knots of wind and that is with main and jib , with the gennaker 13 to 14 will be reached.
We will start testing number 5 in December or January, if all components are in.
Durban is not that far away from St Francis , only 1.5 hours of flight and while you are in South Africa it might be worth your while to check out this fantastic country
Greetings.

p.s. I have added pictures of hull 5 and hull 6 build in Basalt fiber
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Old 19-08-2008, 18:15   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
I had forgotten about that test but the best speed recorded in it was 9 knots in 15 knots of wind and to me, albeit inexperienced in sailing, that seems OK but not fast and I did faster in a St Francis weighing twice as much in less wind!

So where am I going wrong in my understanding .... what speed should you expect from a Fastcat in 15 knots of wind on a broad reach?

All the test does for me is confirm the problem of no independent test showing high speeds.
\?
Gludy

With all due respect, you have made the same points about Fastcat over and over and over here on the CF. You obviously are not satisfied with the answers you are getting from Gideon but since you are not planning to buy a Fastcat what is your motivation to keep driving your points. It is like you just got married but are still chasing an old girlfriend that you never trusted. The St Francis is a cool boat and your going to love it no matter how fast a Fastcat is.

I cannot think of any manufacturer who has clearly proven exactly how fast their cat sails prior to selling their boats to custmers. That would include Gunboat, Outremer,and Chris White designs and Fastcat.
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Old 20-08-2008, 03:53   #70
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Keegan
I have dropped the subject now but after your post I think i should explain my interest.

Being new to sailing but not boating, I am trying to understand all the factors that influence the performance of a boat. I arranged a number of sea trials and I am very confused about the results. I still today cannot understand the poor performance of the Fastcat compared to the other two boats - because I accept that a lighter boat should be faster, I cannot understand why I did not see that. That is still the case today - its a mystery.

Secondly, claims were made to me about the St Francis agency which are not true and frankly that annoyed me. I feel that if a commercial vendor comes onto the forum and that is something I admire, then they should also be accountable for what they say. Its a two way sword. Hence I raised that issue as well. I believe its in the interest of everyone to know the difference between claims and the truth no matter who it is.

I have now given in on raising these points and I am concentrating on my new boat but my interest in learning as much as I can about sailing will extend way beyond just my new boat. So as far as I am concerned the subject is closed and I actually appreciate Gideon's contribution on ideas for my new boat.

The subjects I raised are now at rest.
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Old 20-08-2008, 13:25   #71
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Just a small matter: I kind of feel like this thread has been hijacked ... No big deal, but in the future if I start a thread about my boat ... talk to me ... if you want to talk about FastCats in general, talk to Gideon.
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Old 20-08-2008, 13:35   #72
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Just a small matter: I kind of feel like this thread has been hijacked ... No big deal, but in the future if I start a thread about my boat ... talk to me ... if you want to talk about FastCats in general, talk to Gideon.
Andreas:

I would enjoy hearing more about your early experiences with your new Fastcat, especially as you sail it more and get to know how it performs. It is so hard to tell how a boat performs in one or two sails. After a year of sailing you will really know how she sails and also how to get optimal performance from her.
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Old 21-08-2008, 12:07   #73
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Andreas:

I would enjoy hearing more about your early experiences with your new Fastcat, especially as you sail it more and get to know how it performs. It is so hard to tell how a boat performs in one or two sails. After a year of sailing you will really know how she sails and also how to get optimal performance from her.
Hello,

I totally agree. Unfortunately I haven't been able to sail nearly as much as I'd like to since I got back to Norway. It has nothing to do with the boat and everything to do with me working as much as possible to make money to enable me to cast off as soon as possible. If all goes as planned I'll be enjoying the fjords this weekend.

A report and pictures will follow.
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Old 22-08-2008, 02:31   #74
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Looking forward to the report and pics from the fjords and fastcats....
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Old 30-07-2009, 00:15   #75
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Hull number 5 is build as a factory demonstrator with the Green Motion system in place and that cat will be available for testing both by the press and by prospective customers and you are welcome to come and sail with us if you feel like it.
Being that the quoted post is almost a year old and that the"Green Motion System [is] in place," I assume that hull number 5, the green motion boat, (really number 4) has been tested by potential buyers and the press. What have the results been like?


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Customers always come first with us
There are Fastcat owners who question that statement.
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